Military AI Works • RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies
Page 1 of 2

RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 12:57
by Manschy
Hi,

now coming a little closer to the end, I noticed several issues across-the-board.

So today, I begin to tidy up some Brüggen sections and my most abstract section is everything containing frequencies. I have no experiences with that and simply built my AFCAD around the former stock airport.
Now my problem is that I noticed a lot of foreign frequencies from surrounding airports, most annoying "Kleine-Brogel", but also Eindhoven and some german airports. Regarding a lot of AI traffic at Brüggen, there is almost no chance to make a conversation with the ATC...

How can I extract these from my ADE or how can I repair my settings?

I have attached my ADEX.bgl for you to study. Each help is much appreciated.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 14:56
by Firebird
Well it doesn't help that all 3x freqs are the same. If all the ATC positions at the base use the same freq you will definitely be in trouble at times.

I checked the default FS9 freqs for Bruggen are :-
Bruggen Tower 122.1
Talkdown Approach 123.3 / 130.5
Bruggen Zone 119.7

The FS9 addon scenery I have has :-
Bruggen Tower 122.1
Bruggen Approach 130.5
Wildenrath Departure 119.7

So just using those as ref it would seem that the addon freqs would be the obvious test.
I do wonder if somehow you have got an awful lot of addons with 122.1 set which is why you have the issue.

Now with KB, I checked the FS9 default and it does have 122.1 set for Tower and Ground but an addon afcad has different freqs. Your solution could be as simple as seeing the actual freqs in use and using those. Although looking at the KB real freqs it does use 122.1.

So in a nutshell the simplest answer maybe to altering the Bruggen freqs so that 122.1 is not used. As it doesn't exist any more the chances are that nobody will know any way.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 15:11
by Manschy
Thank you, Steve. I will check this out.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 15:24
by jimrodger
Lights
Red identification beacon with ident BG.

Radio beacons

NDB: 329 "BG", at field
TACAN: CH 126 "BGG", at field
ILS 27: 111.3 "BG"

Radio communication

Clutch Radar 298.0
Approach 354.2, 119.7, 130.8, 362.3
Radar (SRE) 283.2, 119.7, 344.0
Talkdown (PAR) 372.0, 130.5, 316.0, 123.3
Tower 284.8, 122.1, 257.8
Ground 379.9




Jim

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 15:34
by Fokket50
The problem is that military airports use different radios then civil aviation. That is why you see frequencies like 284.8 on military airports but not in civil airports.
To be able to hear also civil aircraft, military airports also have a civil frequency, and that is often 122.1
In the real world it is not used often, so it is no problem that more airports use that frequency. In fs9/fsx you can only use the civil frequencues which creates problems.

Menno

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 16:33
by TimC340
As Menno says, the default frequencies for military aircraft are UHF, not VHF. 122.1 is a NATO standard backup frequency, and is monitored by all military airfields. Hence, in FS/P3D, it's rammed with interrupting calls from airfields up to 200 miles away. Avoid 122.1 in your airports! You can't be prototypically accurate as FS won't let you use UHF, so be sensible and give all your airports discrete frequencies.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 21:14
by Manschy
That's so helpful, never pondered on that! Thank you very much. So does it help if I change the appropriate frequencies a little, for example + 0,5?

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 25 Mar 2020, 22:08
by Firebird
Yes, but again don't have them all the same.
For example imagine you are in ATC trying to talk a plane in for a GCA and somebody asks for permission to taxy on the same freq.

You can't go far wrong by amending the 122.1 for Tower and then using the other VHF freqs mentioned by Jim as a guide.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 26 Mar 2020, 09:56
by TimC340
Manschy wrote:
25 Mar 2020, 21:14
That's so helpful, never pondered on that! Thank you very much. So does it help if I change the appropriate frequencies a little, for example + 0,5?
If you're using ADE to allocate frequencies, it'll generally avoid freqs that are used by other airfields within a reasonable distance. If you're doing it manually, it might be a bit of a case of trial and error - you've no idea what other airfields in the vicinity your users may have; the portfolio of an RAF enthusiast will be different from that of a German Military enthusiast, or one who just wants this particular geographical area. FS/P3D does allow 25khz separation, but not - I think - the current 8.33khz separation. 25khz gives you 760 discrete frequencies to use, which should be enough.

ETA: 119.7 and 123.3 are also NATO standard frequencies, but only used by airfields with radar and talkdown facilities, so are less crowded.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 26 Mar 2020, 10:11
by TimC340
To add to the above, and to what Jim posted earlier, here's the Bruggen entry in the RAF Northern Europe En Route Supplement of 25 March 1999:

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 26 Mar 2020, 11:50
by Manschy
Holy cow - how about all other scenery designers? Do they use that amount of different parametres as well? I remember the early FS 2004 version, but there are only one or two different frequencies...

I think it will be great to have 2 different frequencies at least, to make it possible asking for taxiing while other aircraft are landing....
Did I understand this correctly?

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 26 Mar 2020, 14:56
by TimC340
It depends what you're trying to achieve, really. For an experience more or less like reality, at a European fast-jet base you should have Ground, Tower, and Approach (there may be a joint Approach radar with other units nearby - FS/P3D does allow for that). FS's ATC system is firmly USA oriented, so it doesn't really work the way we have it in Europe, but those three give a reasonable approximation. For a trucky base, add Clearance Delivery. If you're planning to use flyable aircraft at the base, I'd add an ATIS. If you create a separate AFCAD for, say, a grass runway, you can allocate the same frequencies to that although there will be no co-ordination between the 'hard' airfield ATC and the 'grass' airfield ATC.

If you want a full explanation of how military (or civil) airfield ATC works, we could do that - but it would be a fairly long post!

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 26 Mar 2020, 16:34
by Manschy
Hmm, best solution to me at moment seems as follows:

- Getting a RAF Brüggen only frequency for AI (without any thousand other airports disturbing ATC)
- Another frequency for ground activities like taxiing

That's more than I can understand and handle currently...

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 26 Mar 2020, 18:13
by Firebird
As well as the fact that only VHF freqs can be used there was also the fact that FS9 couldn't address the full VHF range. Whether FSX/P3D have a greater capability I can't say for sure but I seem to remember something along those lines when we had freq issues at Miramr.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 27 Mar 2020, 04:06
by TimC340
Steve, the limitation you refer to is the one I mentioned above. MSFS/P3D uses the old-fashioned 25KHz spacing. In real life, we’ve been using 8.33KHz spacing for many years. So the sims are missing two thirds of the available freqs.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 27 Mar 2020, 06:59
by Firebird
I think that the range for FS9 is also smaller in size than in reality, but I could be wrong there. I just remember the trouble with Miramar and in the end we ended up using the original in game freqs to get full comms.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 27 Mar 2020, 12:19
by TimC340
The FS9 range is the same as FSX and P3d - 118.0 to 136.975MHz in 25Khz steps. That's the civilian 760-channel spectrum that was in use up to around 2010, when the 8.33KHz spacing came in allowing 2280 channels. The only break in that should be 121.4 to 121.6, to protect the emergency frequency of 121.5 from interference - but MSFS ignores that. There are military channels in the range between 137MHz and 144MHz which were commonly used back in the 50s/60s and 70s, but they've been mostly removed these days for other uses. It may be that the Miramar frequencies you were trying to use were in this range?

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 27 Mar 2020, 13:42
by Firebird
The freqs that we had issues with were over 130, and I think at least one under, but I can't remember the specifics. I do remember that you could set them, and you would get no errors but they just would not register in game and AI aircraft just did not talk to them.
I thought that I read that the FS9 range was not as wide as FSX but I can't swear that this is true.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 27 Mar 2020, 16:43
by TimC340
Interesting! I hadn't heard that (ADE certainly thinks FS9 is the same as FSX/P3D), but it would be good to have that confirmed for those still working on FS9 scenery.

Re: RAF Brüggen: Help needed with ADE Frequencies

Posted: 27 Mar 2020, 21:10
by Firebird
Absolutely agree there, Tim.
I think that a lot of afcad designers, especially in the prominent days of FS9, cut across the comms of existing afcads even the defaults so it wasn't an issue. The only times I personally encountered it was when a developer added the real world comms all in the interests of added authenticity. Occasionally, and only very occasionally it fell foul of something unseen. I was never able to nail it down to anything specific.