B-52s Sink into the ramp Tail First

[wbunnell]

I downloaded Barksdale and Minot B-52s packages. After editing the Air ED file so that the aircraft will show up in my list of aircraft.
I pick an aircraft to look at and it fall tail first into the ramp. Why???
I know they are for ai only, but none of my regular B-52s stand on all 10 wheels with no movement.

[Firebird]

If you re-copy over the original air file from Mike's package(s) and all is well if so then I would suggest using Martin's AIAE editor to alter the viewing state.

If however the problem still persists then it is because you have accidentally altered something in the cfg file as well. If you left everything as Mike set then just copy over the original cfg file and all should be well.

[wbunnell]

Nothing Except the Aircraft type was changed to 0.
I have tried using the different B-52 aircraft.cfg, from the "general" down, ie, Changing every thing but the list of Aircraft. Same thing, down we go.

[Chrisb]

I thought the tail dipping actions were as a result of the aircraft being AI. A lot of them do it and I think its cropped up in the forum before.

There is nothing wrong with changing the model to a viewable aircraft but to view it as 'your' aircraft you would have to use the 'slew' command. The moment you take the 'slew' off they can do all those moves.

Chris

[John Young]

The aircraft is indeed set up with AI flight dynamics. They often differ quite significantly to dynamics for a user-flyable aircraft in order to get the right behaviour with the AI engine.

If the tail is dropping, the first thing to do is move the position of the centre of gravity in the "empty_weight_CG_position =" forwards or backwards by a few feet in the aircraft.cfg file until you get the aircraft level.

That would mean damaging the dynamics for the AI B-52s, so you would need to copy the whole folder, rename it, delete all the .cfg aircraft entries apart from the ones you want as flyable and then re-name the respective titles in [flightsim.0] etc.

You can then play around with the flight dynamics for the flyable aircraft only.

Check the weight also. AI aircraft don't use Maximum weight, just "Empty Weight". The value of this is often set way below the published weight, again to get the right AI characteristics. If you do that of course, you will normally have to adjust the engine power values. You could end up chasing your tail unless you understand how the parameters affect each other.

John

[VulcanDriver]

Probably best to do a re-install. Having played with the FDE its a hornets nest! I leave that to the experts! I'm just a simple designer!!

[wbunnell]

I have Remove and replaced every JMAI B-52, numerous times; I edited the Aired, Aircraft Type, to 0.

I have used other B-52 Aircraft.cfg files that set flat on the ramp, some aircraft float about 5’ (feet), above the ramp, others sink into the ramp up to the cockpit windows.
This is all happened on the same airfield all the B-52 from JMAI sink in to the ramp tail first. Not a problem in ai.

I will say again I know these are for AI only, It takes a long time to down load each aircraft to for a flightplan to see what the aircraft looks like.

Any help on this problem would be greatly appreciated .

[JohnTenn]

Hi

Throwing in my bit.

The aircraft .CFG file contains the contact points for the aircraft. This determines how high the centre of the model is from the surface.
The contact points also determine how the behaviour is going to be relative to the ground.

The .CFG and .air files are normally matched.

When the dynamics are basic, then you can swap out the .air and .CFG files and see no real difference.

If however the author of the aircraft has put a great deal of effort into the flight dynamics and behaviour of the model then the .air and .CFG files for that specific aircraft must be matched.

I have seen B200 AI spin and fall into the ground because of mismatched files.

Lastly, if only one type of aircraft sinks or floats it is due to the contact points.

If all AI aircraft sink or float it is due to the first loaded airport elevation. Discussed in other threads.

For FS9 I have a program called HideAI downloaded from Avsim or Flightsim.com that changes the aircraft to visible on the aircraft selection tab to invisible. Also vice versa.
This does not change the flight dynamics but you are able to select it and possibly fly it without instrument panels etc.

John

[Firebird]

What John says about the cfg file is correct. You can't simply replace it with one from another B-52.

With these problems that you are seeing they are user induced.

So lets forget everything so far and get back to basics.
What happens if you re-copy the original cfg file and air file back into the folder, replacing what you have at the moment?

Now once you have done that you need to eliminate scenery as an issue. So are you creating your own flightplans or using ones somebody supplied?
The reason I ask is that what you need to do is see the plane on the ground at an airfield that you KNOW you do not have any issues with different altitudes.

The thing here is that a lot of people have downloaded the B-52 and you seem to be the only one that has this problem, so in all likelihood it is something that you have introduced.
You see I am curious as to why you are amending the air file so that the aircraft will appear in your list. Most people do the opposite because the more aircraft in the list the longer FS takes to load so they set them to invisible. Are you trying to fly these models?

[JohnTenn]

Steve

Making the aircraft AI only reduces the load time of the aircraft selection menu.

Look for this upload at Avsim by Ronald Falzon: Speeding Up Loading of FS9 Tutorial.
Under utilities.

Tried it and it works. FS9 loaded, with only default aircraft, faster that Microsoft Outlook.
You just need to be careful when you manage the files.

John

[wbunnell]

Hi

Throwing in my bit.

The aircraft .CFG file contains the contact points for the aircraft. This determines how high the centre of the model is from the surface.
The contact points also determine how the behaviour is going to be relative to the ground.

The .CFG and .air files are normally matched.

When the dynamics are basic, then you can swap out the .air and .CFG files and see no real difference.

If however the author of the aircraft has put a great deal of effort into the flight dynamics and behaviour of the model then the .air and .CFG files for that specific aircraft must be matched.

I have seen B200 AI spin and fall into the ground because of mismatched files.

Lastly, if only one type of aircraft sinks or floats it is due to the contact points.

If all AI aircraft sink or float it is due to the first loaded airport elevation. Discussed in other threads.

For FS9 I have a program called HideAI downloaded from Avsim or Flightsim.com that changes the aircraft to visible on the aircraft selection tab to invisible. Also vice versa.
This does not change the flight dynamics but you are able to select it and possibly fly it without instrument panels etc.

John

I’ll play with the contact points and see what happens. Thanks for the insight, I think I read that before on one of these forums.

[wbunnell]

What John says about the cfg file is correct. You can't simply replace it with one from another B-52.

With these problems that you are seeing they are user induced.

So lets forget everything so far and get back to basics.
What happens if you re-copy the original cfg file and air file back into the folder, replacing what you have at the moment?

Now once you have done that you need to eliminate scenery as an issue. So are you creating your own flightplans or using ones somebody supplied?
The reason I ask is that what you need to do is see the plane on the ground at an airfield that you KNOW you do not have any issues with different altitudes.

The thing here is that a lot of people have downloaded the B-52 and you seem to be the only one that has this problem, so in all likelihood it is something that you have introduced.
You see I am curious as to why you are amending the air file so that the aircraft will appear in your list. Most people do the opposite because the more aircraft in the list the longer FS takes to load so they set them to invisible. Are you trying to fly these models?

All My MAIW Aircraft Are downloaded into a file “MAIW files opened”, on my desktop in their original format. I then Change the, JMAI headings to USAF. If there is a problem like the way I’m having now, I reload the original aircraft in the “MAIW files opened” folder.
Like I said in my last post, All the B-52s from JMAI fall tail first through the ramp” even after I replaced them with original files.
If as for me being the only one that has that has a problem, I guess I’m blessed.
Why would all of the B-52s made by JMAI have the same problem, yet the KC-135s don’t? Maybe I should quit doing what I have been doing for about 14 years or longer, and just except no one knows how to correct the problem.
Other people probably, know how to correct the problem, I don’t!

[JohnTenn]

If I understand correctly you unzip or install all your MAIW aircraft to a single folder.

When you unzip or install data into a folder the files with the same name are replaced with the one you are installing.

You need to place the new aircraft folder in its complete and unique entirety into the main aircraft folder in FS9. Your new folder will then have the intended Aircraft.cfg file and the matched xxxxx.air file also the intended model folder.

Each aircraft type must be separate in its own folder, containing an aircraft.cfg, xxxx.air. a model or model folders and textures. You can combine the different [fltsim.x] entries for as many as you wish provided the textures are included and they use the same visual model.

[VulcanDriver]

I have all the B-52 packages installed and I've never had any problems with them. I think the problem lies with how you are installing the package not with aircraft. The executable that the package uses will place the files in the correct location. There is no need to do it manually.

[gsnde]

He is trying to use them as user aircraft, John.

[campbeme]

He is trying to use them as user aircraft, John.

This is the part im finding hard to understand...why? If all he wants to do is view them just produce a simple FP to have the choosen Aircraft sitting on the ground all day, alot less time consuming (10 minute job) than screwing a perfectly good AI FDE up.

Im all retired from this hobby now so please dont ask me to try and remember how I did it, but when I was producing packages for MAIW, I did three packages where aircraft were parked all day.

RAF Tucano. The stored Tucano in the hangars.
ROKAF Slam Eagle package, (forgotten the exact name). The retired F-5's
NAS Lemoore the 3 F-18 aboard the JFK carrier.

Please doctor any of those flight plans to help you with your unique problem.

[JohnTenn]

If I now understand.

The aircraft.cfg and .air were modified to make the aircraft flyable.

My knowledge on this subject is limited. Having said that.

I have tried unsuccessfully in the past to combine the dynamics of one aircraft with the model of another.

The .air and .cfg files are matched. The visual model file is just a 3d picture that is moved around by the other two files.
The centre of gravity of the flying model (.air and .cfg) will require the wheels to be in specified points relative to the centre of gravity to hold the aircraft properly on the ground.

The centre of the visual model (3d picture, intersection of X,Y,Z axes of the 3d modelling program) is referenced to the centre of gravity of the dynamic model.

If you can match the 3d model centre properly with the dynamic centre of gravity then you might be able to match the contact points for the gear.

To do this properly you will have to read up on how to create your own aircraft.

John

[VulcanDriver]

Well that's the problem. Its nearly impossible to make our AI aircraft flyable. Firstly there is a lot of custom XML code in MAIW aircraft that cannot be used by a "human" pilot, secondly the .air and .cfg files are designed for a specific aircraft by the MAIW FDE expert. In short the OP is trying to do the impossible. If he wants a flyable B-52 I recommend the old Alphasim one if it still available. I use it and its very good.

[Firebird]

All My MAIW Aircraft Are downloaded into a file “MAIW files opened”, on my desktop in their original format. I then Change the, JMAI headings to USAF. If there is a problem like the way I’m having now, I reload the original aircraft in the “MAIW files opened” folder.
Like I said in my last post, All the B-52s from JMAI fall tail first through the ramp” even after I replaced them with original files.
If as for me being the only one that has that has a problem, I guess I’m blessed.
Why would all of the B-52s made by JMAI have the same problem, yet the KC-135s don’t? Maybe I should quit doing what I have been doing for about 14 years or longer, and just except no one knows how to correct the problem.
Other people probably, know how to correct the problem, I don’t!

OK lets move all those B52 folders that you have installed to another part of your PC, so that FS can't see them.
Now extract one of Mike's packages to your manual folder. There is nothing wrong with that, I always prefer to do manual installations.
Now lets leave any alteration of Mike's original files for the moment, this is only to eliminate any possibility of problems at all.

So which pack are you installing and which base are looking at the aircraft on the ground when they fall through the ramp? I want to do a check myself to see what I get.

[wbunnell]

He is trying to use them as user aircraft, John.

Thank you I knew someone would get sooner or later