The website and forum will be intermittently unavailable while we're making some security updates.
File uploads to the download hangar are also disabled until further notice.

Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Discussion, tutorials,hints and tips relating to designing military ai aircraft.
renee
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Mar 2008, 03:20

Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by renee »

Looking for any info reguarding custom animations on helos taking off and landing etc.(Like Nick Blacks helos)
Also looking for a helo FDE.
Thanks
J.Abbott
renee
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Mar 2008, 03:20

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by renee »

I may seem suspicious but I'm not. I have indeed been a registered member for 2 yrs, I have downloaded many,many, many of your aircraft and packs. I love flying MSFS and have for years ( Have versions 98-Fsx Deluxe. I love modeling and learning to model with Gmax, and FSDS. I'm 57 Yrs of age, I grew up in lubbock Texas where my dad was an electrician at Reese AFB, so I have spent many hours watching T37s and 38s etc. come and go. I don't get to fly or learn as much as I use to because this hobby is so addictive that my wife wants to pull my hair out everytime I sit in front of this thing, hours at a time ( she thinks I love this stuff more than her) Ha! could you imagine. Anyway I have no bad intentions I just love this hobby and enjoy learning. Now that I've explaned myself to you mabe you should do the same.

J.Abbott
User avatar
kungfuman
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 845
Joined: 01 Jun 2008, 18:21
Version: FS9
Location: EGGD

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by kungfuman »

Well said! :D
Dan
tjwhite56
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 46
Joined: 14 Aug 2006, 19:46
Version: FS9
Location: Bolivar, NY

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by tjwhite56 »

renee wrote:Looking for any info reguarding custom animations on helos taking off and landing etc.(Like Nick Blacks helos)
Also looking for a helo FDE.
Thanks
J.Abbott

Moderator's Input: This thread will go no further until you give us some of your background information and what exactly your intentions are.

Your first post, yet you've been a registered member for more than two years......

Looks really suspicious....
Is there a rule as to how often one is required to make a post in order to stay a member in good standing?, there is another thread in which someone takes a swipe at people who are members but have zero posts. Now here is a guy who asks a question, and he gets interrogated. Could someone clarify why this question is suspicious so the rest of us don't make the same mistake? It sounds to me like he might be thinking about building a helicopter and wants to try to make it to MAIW standards. One reason a lot of people don't post is because there are a lot of good people on here that already ask the right questions, and already have the answers.
User avatar
nickblack423
MAIW Veteran
MAIW Veteran
Posts: 2155
Joined: 11 Aug 2006, 21:43
Version: FS9
Location: Ipswich, UK
Contact:

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by nickblack423 »

The Custome animation is created by putting a single part in the model (a 3 sided ploygon buried into the fuselage) that is triggered by an XML code to animate when the throttle position is 95% and more. All parts within the model are then slaved to this part, and the part itself is animated to start flat on the ground at keyframe 0 and lifted off the ground and tilted forwards at keyframe 100. The FDE is then created to allow the aircraft to lift off quickly and stop quickly on landing. I cannot share more with you at this stage, as I'm sure you will appreciate, this is my little baby, and I want to keep it reserved for my own projects to make them stand out as special in the AI world. Mike MacIntyre created the FDE for me for the helicopter models.

What I would suggest you do is take this as a starting point, if you want to try and do the same, and experiment to see if you can get it.

All the best.

Nick
"Pain Heals......Chicks Dig Scars.....Glory, Lasts Forever!!!"
Image
Image
User avatar
nickblack423
MAIW Veteran
MAIW Veteran
Posts: 2155
Joined: 11 Aug 2006, 21:43
Version: FS9
Location: Ipswich, UK
Contact:

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by nickblack423 »

tjwhite56 wrote:
renee wrote:Looking for any info reguarding custom animations on helos taking off and landing etc.(Like Nick Blacks helos)
Also looking for a helo FDE.
Thanks
J.Abbott

Moderator's Input: This thread will go no further until you give us some of your background information and what exactly your intentions are.

Your first post, yet you've been a registered member for more than two years......

Looks really suspicious....
Is there a rule as to how often one is required to make a post in order to stay a member in good standing?, there is another thread in which someone takes a swipe at people who are members but have zero posts. Now here is a guy who asks a question, and he gets interrogated. Could someone clarify why this question is suspicious so the rest of us don't make the same mistake? It sounds to me like he might be thinking about building a helicopter and wants to try to make it to MAIW standards. One reason a lot of people don't post is because there are a lot of good people on here that already ask the right questions, and already have the answers.
No offence meant here, I apologise for anyones back being got up, and I hope my explanation above helps to clarify my own and MAIW's stand on this subject.

Nick
"Pain Heals......Chicks Dig Scars.....Glory, Lasts Forever!!!"
Image
Image
User avatar
MIKE JG
MAIW Developer
MAIW Developer
Posts: 10976
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 02:25
Version: MSFS

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by MIKE JG »

Some of the things we have developed as an organization over the last four years are proprietary. YES we are not a payware group so why should we care?? Pride I suppose more than anything else.

That being said some of the more advanced things we do like the true helicopter AI animations and their custom made FDE's and other projects we're currently working on, we will not be willingly sharing the techniques on with people we don't know or trust. It's not that we can't trust our forum members and users, it's just that there's really no good way to vet people ahead of time.

The AI modeling community is VERY small. We generally know most if not all AI modelers out there on a first name basis. When someone new wants to break into the community they generally start by introducing themselves usually with a few promising looking screenshots of the models that they have begun working on. They ask all kinds of good questions about the various aspects of building a model from scratch and we willingly and freely give of our time and our knowledge that we've gained over the last 4 years of doing this to help them along. They normally get their LOD1 model looking good and then all of a sudden, they disappear and we never hear from them again. Chances are they get to the texturing and LOD stage and realize just how much more work is involved than they anticipated.

So to be quite frank, we see a lot of people come and go with nothing to show for our efforts at trying to help them along. Modeling takes a good bit of time to get to the level where Nick, Jake, Kevin, Pascal, Rysiek and others are at or have been. They didn't get there over night. They spent hours and hours toiling away at their own computer trying to master this black art. When a modeler like Nick manages to crack open a long sought after idea like the helicopter animations, it is the result of countless hours of trial and error with modeling animations and XML scripts along with FDE tricks to try to get it right. Keep in mind it's not just Nick toiling away to get it right, it's also Mike MacIntyer working tirelessly to get the FDE side of the equation just right, and that takes as much time and effort as actually building the model itself.

That being said, I hope all of you guys can appreciate that the knowledge gained from that experience is not something that Nick and Mike and the other modelers would necessarily want to share with just anyone who asks. Those are very specific and advanced techniques and for someone who has never produced a model, you could tell them how to do it but there's really not a lot of benefit for them on their end. Meanwhile Nick gives up some of his hard earned knowledge anyhow knowing full well that it most likely won't ever get used.

So this happens several times over the course of many months and eventually Nick and the other modelers learn to just not explain these things as there really is not a benefit to the overall community as a whole.

So when someone asks very specific questions about those techniques, it's raises a few eyebrows around here about what that person's true intentions are. That would be my guess as to why our Moderator stepped in.
-Mike G.

Recovering flight sim addict, constant lurker.

Check out my real life RV-8 build here: RV-8 Builder Log
User avatar
nickblack423
MAIW Veteran
MAIW Veteran
Posts: 2155
Joined: 11 Aug 2006, 21:43
Version: FS9
Location: Ipswich, UK
Contact:

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by nickblack423 »

MIKE JG wrote:Some of the things we have developed as an organization over the last four years are proprietary. YES we are not a payware group so why should we care?? Pride I suppose more than anything else.

That being said some of the more advanced things we do like the true helicopter AI animations and their custom made FDE's and other projects we're currently working on, we will not be willingly sharing the techniques on with people we don't know or trust. It's not that we can't trust our forum members and users, it's just that there's really no good way to vet people ahead of time.

The AI modeling community is VERY small. We generally know most if not all AI modelers out there on a first name basis. When someone new wants to break into the community they generally start by introducing themselves usually with a few promising looking screenshots of the models that they have begun working on. They ask all kinds of good questions about the various aspects of building a model from scratch and we willingly and freely give of our time and our knowledge that we've gained over the last 4 years of doing this to help them along. They normally get their LOD1 model looking good and then all of a sudden, they disappear and we never hear from them again. Chances are they get to the texturing and LOD stage and realize just how much more work is involved than they anticipated.

So to be quite frank, we see a lot of people come and go with nothing to show for our efforts at trying to help them along. Modeling takes a good bit of time to get to the level where Nick, Jake, Kevin, Pascal, Rysiek and others are at or have been. They didn't get there over night. They spent hours and hours toiling away at their own computer trying to master this black art. When a modeler like Nick manages to crack open a long sought after idea like the helicopter animations, it is the result of countless hours of trial and error with modeling animations and XML scripts along with FDE tricks to try to get it right. Keep in mind it's not just Nick toiling away to get it right, it's also Mike MacIntyer working tirelessly to get the FDE side of the equation just right, and that takes as much time and effort as actually building the model itself.

That being said, I hope all of you guys can appreciate that the knowledge gained from that experience is not something that Nick would necessarily want to share with just anyone who asks. Those are very specific and advanced techniques and for someone who has never produced a model, you could tell them how to do it but there's really not a lot of benefit for them on their end. Meanwhile Nick gives up some of his hard earned knowledge anyhow knowing full well that it most likely won't ever get used.

So this happens several times over the course of many months and eventually Nick and the other modelers learn to just not explain these things as there really is not a benefit to the overall community as a whole.
I agree with alot of what you say there Mike, but I am also open to the idea of developing new modellers and their expertise. We at MAIW are very conscious of the fact that more people making things relieves the pressuer on the rest of us, hence why we have started teaching you how to use FSDS with our tutorial videos.
At the same time though, and I think this is what was intended by the post from whichever Moderator commented on the first post in this thread, we are aware that we have all spent lots and lots of time, years in fact developing our techniques and tricks. We are not likely to give up all our information to someone who we don't know as I hope you can appreciate.

So renee if you have a model that you would like to use these techniques on, please let us know some more about it in the Aircraft Designs thread on the forums, and we can try and help you from there. Maybe once you are far enough on, we can work together on getting the same kind of animations I have in my AI Helicopters.

All the best.

Nick
"Pain Heals......Chicks Dig Scars.....Glory, Lasts Forever!!!"
Image
Image
User avatar
MIKE JG
MAIW Developer
MAIW Developer
Posts: 10976
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 02:25
Version: MSFS

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by MIKE JG »

I certainly agree with that. I too would love to see new modelers come along. I will continue to work on the FSDS tutorials. Currently I have to get my microphone jack fixed. I got up from the computer a couple weeks ago while making the next tutorial and promptly tripped over the headset cord ripping it out of the back of my tower case. Now it won't pick up the voice portion from the headset, all you get is static. So I've got to figure that out and then I can continue on with the rest of the FSDS tutes.

I guess if I had any advice for the original poster and the rest of our forum users on this issue, I would have combined his first two posts into one. That would have probably kept the alarms from sounding around here. A little background info goes a long way.
-Mike G.

Recovering flight sim addict, constant lurker.

Check out my real life RV-8 build here: RV-8 Builder Log
ronniegj

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by ronniegj »

I want to ramble on a bit about the above posts, firstly stating that Mike and Nick are spot on, and without any offensive connotations. Good job guys!

Having said that, I like to offer an opinion to Mike. It sounds likely that you are using an integrated sound solution on your motherboard. If it has suffered any physical damage to the input, it is likely that it would be more trouble than it is worth to repair. Far easier is to purchase an inexpensive (or a very expensive if you really must) addon sound card, plug it in, reset the bios to recognize the new card instead of the integrated sound and you are on your way. Just a thought!

Re: Nicks heli solution. When this first appeared I began to speculate on how he did it. Based on what he said above, his solution is much less complex than mine, and less polys as well. Of course, I'm not at a stage where I can model and test my idea, yet, but some day I will be there. I had also hoped that my idea (once tested out) would also be a possible solution to the problem that Jake Burris has mentioned re: his B-52 and it's take off and landing profile. Time will tell! In any case, I'm not speaking to grab any respect creds etc, but rather to point out that even if you aren't at a stage of competence that you can create a model, or even propose a solid solution to a problem, you can still do the critical thinking that may over time prepare you to create great features in the future. If you think you have a solid idea, I would suggest that you use PM to contact one of the advanced guys and ask their opinion of your idea. I really don't think that any of our top guys would rip you off, and if your idea has merit, I'm sure they would be happy to work with you to bring it to a usable stage. This would benefit the hobby as a whole, and help to remove road blocks that are holding up other models.

Currently, I'm working on creating a (or a series) of water towers for use at airfields (I know, this has already been done) for the purpose of learning from the first two of Mikes video lessons. I'm not overly concerned with things like correct scale, proper texturing etc. What I want is to get a working experience with FSDS, and to eventually begin to understand LODs. Truth is, I have little, or no interest in a water tower of my own. My long term goal is to develop a retro model, with perhaps a little too many polys vis a vis MAIW, but not too many. It will not be intended to create a huge fleet of a/c but rather a single example (perhaps at multiple locations) such as a flying exhibit at a museum. It will have to have a few 'special animations' not normally included in a MAIW model, but hopefully will include all of the expected features of a MAIW model otherwise. Jake Burris has created a number of similar models (all excellent, by the way) and I'd like to mention him especially for working in a much under appreciated niche area. Thanks so much Jake!

What I have learned so far is that beyond the modeling skill, a 'huge' amount of research is required in order to have the info necessary to create a single credible model. Our best guys at MAIW go so far beyond this, as they attempt to cover many marks of the same a/c suitable for multiple air forces and so on. I can't imagine ever being able to complete that much research in order to develop even a single modern, active, aircraft. Hats off to them!

What I have also learned, and this is very important, is that it is unlikely that all of the skill and knowledge necessary to complete an acceptable model, ready for release or inclusion in a package, resides in any single individual. Have you bothered to do a little research into the fde file? Thank God 'Magic Mike' is here and willing to help set up a decent air file and getting the a/c to be a usable AI model. Most of us don't have the math skills needed to do a good job of this. And that is only one example!

The point I'm trying to make is that we can all contribute, but we need to more freely communicate amongst ourselves if we really expect to achieve any success. At the same time. we must be mindful of each others intellectual property rights, and the right to establish and increase our reputations as we grow and contribute. Just be aware that any project that you may imagine, can be accomplished, however, the road to completion is complex and very long. Be sure you want to commit, hold your water until you have done enough of the ground work to establish your credible commitment, and then, when ready, present yourself, first to a possible mentor, and then when appropriate, present yourself to the community.

The gent who started this thread, I am sure, had not intention of trying to rip off intellectual property, however, when it comes to techniques that are not generally in the public realm, it is better to make first contact via PM, presenting you project in so detail, and be prepared to have to get at the secrets of the trade in a step by step way, as you earn the confidence of the person/person's who originally did the work to develop the method. That is only fair!

Ron
renee
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Mar 2008, 03:20

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by renee »

I understand you beening suspicious. If I were in your position I would be the same way. Everybody has a right to protect their own. No hard feelings toward any of you. I appreciate all of you. I do infact know what its like to have someone steel your ides and hard work. Anyway I love your models, effects, scenery etc. (realism of the whole) By the way Nick I do believe I have some of your first work (Nicks touch down effects, smoke effects etc.)
All of you are excellent at what your doing.
I have come across another modeler who clams to have the same intellect on helos taking off and landing. His package is for FS9. Mil Mi-14 Helicopter Russian amphibious helicopter (AI Version) for Heli Traffic 2009. By Hannes von der Heide

I will try your modeling tip etc. You will hear from me again.


J.Abbott
User avatar
MIKE JG
MAIW Developer
MAIW Developer
Posts: 10976
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 02:25
Version: MSFS

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by MIKE JG »

Thanks for the tip Ron, I may have to do that. I have yet to get back there and get a good solid look at the physical hardware involved to see if it is truly damaged. I suspect it is. I'll certainly keep everyone posted as I'd like to continue with the tutorials as soon as possible.
-Mike G.

Recovering flight sim addict, constant lurker.

Check out my real life RV-8 build here: RV-8 Builder Log
User avatar
nickblack423
MAIW Veteran
MAIW Veteran
Posts: 2155
Joined: 11 Aug 2006, 21:43
Version: FS9
Location: Ipswich, UK
Contact:

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by nickblack423 »

renee wrote:By the way Nick I do believe I have some of your first work (Nicks touch down effects, smoke effects etc.)
All of you are excellent at what your doing.
That is Nick Needham I'm afraid not me.

Nick
"Pain Heals......Chicks Dig Scars.....Glory, Lasts Forever!!!"
Image
Image
User avatar
Weescotty
MAIW Developer
MAIW Developer
Posts: 2770
Joined: 11 Aug 2006, 22:15
Version: FS9
Location: Sydney

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by Weescotty »

Relatively simple to do.

Just requires discipline when creating the model.

Start off with a hierachical node that becomes the parent of all other parts whether directly or indircectly.

Directly - The part is linked directly to the main hierarchical node.
Indirectly - The part is linked to another part which is itself linked to the main hierachical node.

The result you want is that in the end all parts are linked to your main node.
I.e. if you move the main node everything else moves with it.

All you need to do then is XML code to move the main node and everything else moves with it.

Works great for skid models. A side effect for wheeled helos is that the wheels continue to turn for its travel down the runway even though it is 'hovering'. MSFS doesn't know it hovering beacuse it's an animation so assumes the wheels are still in contact with the runway.

I had originally tested it way back in 2006 for an AI Osprey that got put on indefinate hold due to other problems. If I ever get back to the Osprey I have an idea on how to eliminate the wheel turning issue.
renee
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Mar 2008, 03:20

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by renee »

nickblack423 wrote:
renee wrote:By the way Nick I do believe I have some of your first work (Nicks touch down effects, smoke effects etc.)
All of you are excellent at what your doing.
That is Nick Needham I'm afraid not me.

Nick
Sorry for the mixup Nick. Like I stated I have'nt had a chance to research anything in a while.(My Wife) Gotta keep the peace! You know what they say "If she ain't happy nobody's happy")

J.Abbott
Last edited by renee on 09 May 2010, 18:09, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
kungfuman
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 845
Joined: 01 Jun 2008, 18:21
Version: FS9
Location: EGGD

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by kungfuman »

:lol: Know how you feel :twisted:
Dan
renee
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Mar 2008, 03:20

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by renee »

Mike G. If you have an ohm meter and a spare plug I will walk you through the process of checking out your mike to see if it is the plug or what (if you don't know how) actually you don't need a plug unless your's is bad. If you don't have a ohm meter you can pick up one at harbor freight for around three bucks. Happy to help!

J.Abbott
renee
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Mar 2008, 03:20

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by renee »

Nick have you thought about copy righting your work with the library of congress and filing a design patient with the U.S. Patient Office. And then their is the poor boy patient. that is to put everything on paper and mail it to yourself. You can not beat a postal/Date stamp. Something to think about!

J.Abbott
User avatar
Greg
MAIW Admin
MAIW Admin
Posts: 4043
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 19:56
Version: MSFS
Location: Belgium

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by Greg »

renee wrote:Nick have you thought about copy righting your work with the library of congress and filing a design patient with the U.S. Patient Office.
This has been discussed many many times over the years in the AI community, but the truth is that nobody really knows how legal all this stuff is.

Take Nick's F/A-18 AI model for example: Nick imitated the shape of the aircraft which is the intellectual property of Boeing and reproduced it digitally. The names "Boeing" and "F/A-18" or trademarks owned by Boeing so you can't use them for your own product without their permission, which they won't give freely. The same goes for painters who make liveries of airlines using their copyrighted logos etcetera.

The conclusion always was that we better keep low profile and don't provoke the companies. Be grateful that they keep an eye closed and let us enjoy our hobby :wink:
renee
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Mar 2008, 03:20

Re: Custom animations for helos taking off and landing

Post by renee »

I understand what your saying about the intellectual property of Boeing, however I was talking more about Nicks intellectual property of his design involved with the helos taking off etc. Therefore he is not infringing on any ones intellectual property. The same goes for scenery design and effects etc. By the way look at the planes that shiped with MSFS those planes are intellectual propertys of vairous aircraft companys yet their in MSFS.

It was just a suggestion to protect ones own intellectual property.
It runs around $20.00 to register ones work/works(you can register one work or a series) with the copyright office.
J.Abbott
Post Reply