Traffic Files And Frame Rates

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tugpilotsmiffy
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Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by tugpilotsmiffy »

Sorry to post another problem, this one now is regarding as you may have guessed from the title is about traffic bgl files and frame rates, having installed all the World of AI Bgl files into their default scenery file location, same as Maiw, I get an unusable sim, frame rates drop to non existent, I bough a copy of ultimate traffic dirt cheap off Ebay and with its one Bgl file the sim ran smooth, but Ultimate isn't really ultimate, it just seems to be as i add more BGL traffic files it slows the sim down ad its nit the amount of ai on show as can go to Nellis of KDMA with a full ramp and frame rates are fine, so is there anyway of merging traffic files into one big one or a number of larges ones or any other way of installing traffic files so they don't slow down the sim in the way described, as I say its not the amount of AI traffic showing thats doing it on my sim/laptop anyway, its the number of BGl's, failing that can anybody suggest a good and much better than ultimate traffic, payware civil traffic programme for Fs2004,

Just to give you an idea with all the Maiw traffic installed in the same way minus civil traffic the sim works fine, add the civil and frame rates make it unusable.

Its an old laptop I'm using, these are the specs

Intel Core I3-3120m CPU @ 2.50 Ghz


RAM 4.00GB

64-bit OS x64 based processor

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Firebird
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Firebird »

It is a myth that one big traffic bgl will have a lesser hit than lots of smaller traffic bgls that add-up to the same number of aircraft.

It will take the same time to load and use the same amount of resources. The only difference really is that the large number of smaller traffic bgls are far more easy to manage and keep updated.

Now the key area here that you talk about is frame rates. Two things really affect frame rates in game, the number of different aircraft it has to load and the scenery. Now you seem to be saying that scenery isn't an issue as if you don't have Civvy traffic so we shall leave the scenery out of the discussion.

The one key piece of information that you don't mention, and you haven't set up your profile to help is what sim you are talking about. This could have a bearing on the case but as I don't know I can't really speculate on any causes related to that.

So we are left with one area of discussion here and I will use the one specific example that you use.
You mention that a full flight line at Nellis gives you no problems but add civvy traffic and the frame rates crash. Will there is an obvious cause there - McCarran. If you are at Nellis and have ciivy traffic at McCarran of course your sim is going to slow down.

For me, RAF Northolt is absolutely fine until my view point brings Heathrow into the picture then the frame rates dive.

If you ignore any possible hardware setup changes and any less that optimal textures then the simple fact is that the more aircraft and aircraft schemes that you have in game the lower your frame rates are going to be.
It maybe that WoAI follow the same example as Alpha India and use many different schemes and even serials for their flightplans. Over the years they have moved more towards individual schemes and serials than when they originally started which increases the number of loads. This is the same as us. You can undo some of this by simplifying the number of schemes. For example I have one BA 747 scheme, one BA A320 scheme etc.

The final point is something that most Mil people don't really think about. In a lot of cases you will have more aircraft at Civvy airports than at Mil bases, therefore the hit at Civvy airports will be more.
If you have full traffic at McCarran and full traffic at Nellis, then McCarran will be the bigger hit.

In short if you want better frame rates you have to reduce your total aircraft.

... unless there is some specific information that you have not announced that may pull other factors in.
Steve
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tugpilotsmiffy
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by tugpilotsmiffy »

Yeah thanks for that, useful as ever, its just FS2004 , I only mentioned Nellis and KDMA as they are both heavy on aircraft and scenery, it happens at Bournemouth or Valley, so same anywhere, and like I say ran it with a solitary traffic BGL and a ramp full of civvy aircraft at Southampton, ran fine, changed to multiple traffic files for civvy, became unusable.

I'm not talking about reduced frame rates, am talking like 1 or a fraction per second, from around 40-50, along with the other problems I'm starting to think I have a pup of a computer, when its working nice I can fly ILS's in the Flylogic F5 stick the traffic files in and I can't make it to the runway.

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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Firebird »

Well it does sound like you have a technical issue somewhere there as combining several traffic bgls into one does not make a difference. The number of aircraft does, but only within visual distance.

Whether it is a graphics card or its driver it is difficult for me to tell. I would not like to recommend people to purchase new hardware unless they are already planning to.

The only time that you might get an issue with multiple traffic files is on system load up and my own tests have proved to me that traffic files are not the biggest thing here. The number of aircraft folders is - which is why I have a shadow 'Aircraft' folder which I use when I test aircraft and scenery to avoid 5-10 minute startups.

Again another factor of having FS9 textures in FSX is not in play because of your sim.
The one thing that i would recommend though, and this may possibly result in the situation that you have is that you only have 4GB of RAM. You would be amazed at the difference that increasing the RAM on a 64 bit system makes, especially as it would give you a much better virtual memory file as well.
It could be that the Mil traffic on its own works fine for the RAM and VMEM but the added traffic takes the system into a state where it is constantly swapping data in and out of VMEM and therefore slowing your system down.
I should say that it is possible and not that it is.

I would suggest, if you find it financially viable looking at either adding or replacing your memory. I personally found that going from 4GB to 16GB of RAM gave the machine a phenomenal performance increase - very noticeable even for FS9.

If you can find a good deal buy 16GB of new RAM that is compatible with your machine. If not 16GB go for 8GB, but if you can possibly get it go for the 16GB.

It might be worth thinking about.
Steve
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tugpilotsmiffy
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by tugpilotsmiffy »

Yeah I will upgrade the RAM as that seems to be the best option at the moment, cheers for your help.

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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Firebird »

Let us know how you get on, I am sure that there are others who may benefit as well if you get a positive experience.
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Greg
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Greg »

Going from 40+ FPS to just 1 is definitely not caused by multiple traffic bgl files nor is it your system in my opinion if you say that it can handle full ramps of military traffic.

It sounds to me like you either have a corrupt file or you're missing a crucial texture or effect file, which makes the sim waste all its resources trying to load.

Normally in such a case you would try to narrow down the issue to the specific aircraft that is calling the missing or corrupt file. You say that your FPS go down dramatically when you import all the civvie traffic bgl files, but try adding them in small batches, let's say 10 at a time and see what that gives you. With a bit of luck, you'll be able to narrow it down to one batch and then further down to one bgl file.

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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Firebird »

Thinking further on what Greg says, what happens if you remove all the Mil bgls and just leave the Civvy bgls?
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by tugpilotsmiffy »

Thats how I am running it at the moment, civvy and mil terrible, civiy only terrible, military on its own fine, and as I say at Nellis or Miramar with full ramps runs fine, as in aerobatics in the Carenado Mentor or Iris PC9 is no problem and flowing, its a pain, will try more RAM or just put this on hold until I can justify buying a new laptop or desktop

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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Greg »

I don't think more RAM is going to solve this particular issue. Remember FS2004 is a 32-bit application and can only use 3 GB-ish...

The problem is with one of the civvy bgl's, or one of the aircraft it is calling. I understand that you are running with either all civil traffic or none. The good thing of having multiple bgl files is that you can just add a few at a time for testing. That way, you'll be able to identify which one is giving you trouble.

tugpilotsmiffy
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by tugpilotsmiffy »

Yeah will give that a try, just out of interest and so I know in the future why would that occur immediately, say I start at EGHH with civvy traffic and get and I'm not kidding ere 1 FPS start at say KDMA and get the same just 1 FPS, am I right in saying that it doesn't matter which aircraft I would be able to see whilst in that scenery area, its just the fact they are those traffic files and just to add I've run civvy traffic with two completely freeware set ups using completely differing sets of BGL's

I will do the adding BGL's a few at a time and see how that goes, cheers for that.

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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Firebird »

Greg is perfectly correct that FS9 is a 32 bit proggie.
Where it gains performance is off the back of a better performing OS. Windows 10 64-bit performs much better with more RAM as I mentioned earlier.
In this particular case although FS9 may not be able to address more than 3GB of memory the OS can and so the more you have the more can be loaded into memory and it runs smoother and it means that as a by-product FS9 gets its full possible range of memory and therefore runs smoother and quicker.

Of course as with all things computer related if you remove one bottleneck you can hit another so no one thing hardware wise is a fix all.
I hope this explains my earlier thoughts as to why extra RAM may improve the situation.
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tugpilotsmiffy
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by tugpilotsmiffy »

Yeah that's all good advice, now its just finding the time to do the adding of traffic files a batch at a time, this is more time consuming than the real world flying I used to do, just a couple of quick questions, in windows 10 does it make any difference if I install FS2004 into programme files or programme filesx64, and could missing aircraft or wrong AC numbers in the traffic files themselves or anything like that be the cause of poor frame rates, and excuse me if that seems incredibly ignorant and a little simple, I was always told there are no stupid questions, I always attempt to challenge that where I can.

Just give you some idea with all Maiw packages installed and the HTAI csep package also installed, stooged around in the Caranedo Seneca and was getting between 55 and 70 fps and around 30-45 at Nellis with a full ramp, bottomed out at around 25 at one point.

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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by Firebird »

In W10 it does not matter where you install your FS9 in the terms of what you were seeing.
Although you should not be installing it in C:\Program Files as it would expect it to be a 64-bit proggy. It should automatically try to install it to C:\Program Files (x86). As always though, it is best to install outside of those folders purely because they are protected folders and this is where addons can get issues with permissions.

If there are aircraft in the traffic files that are not in the system then FS9 will ignore when they are not found, If the AC numbers are wrong then they simply become not found aircraft and are ignored. These are normally highlighted in the compiling stage and are easily remedied though. It is always best to be error free.

So I believe that it is unlikely that either of those cases would cause the issue you are experiencing.

I mulled over the case that Greg was discussing and although i can't discount it, I am not convinced that it is the case.
For these reasons.
Firstly,If an aircraft texture is not found the aircraft will load and be blank. Everybody has had this at times and that does not cause a drop in framerates, in fact it helps it as there are no textures to apply.
Secondly, you mention that this happens all over the place. For this to happen, as you have stated that Mil only traffic do not cause a problem, then for AI civvy traffic to be causing this with a texture issue the same civvy aircraft and its texture must be everywhere that you are. If you use WoAI aircraft it would tend to suggest that this possibility is unlikely.
Finally, just because you have AI traffic in your system does not mean that it gets loaded. For example you have traffic at KDMA but unless the aircraft are with the 100nm zone that EGHH is in the aircraft in the traffic bgl are ignored.

Now to clarify, I am not convinced that Greg is correct but I can't say he is wrong about the textures. Neither would I say that Greg is wrong and I am right about the RAM being the cause.

It could well be neither, but if that is the case then I believe it to be a technical issue either hardware or software.

Going back to the texture issue, and again I am ignoring scenery as an issue due to your reports, the biggest cause of FPS slowdowns that I have seen or heard of that are not system related are due to either 32 bit textures being used on a system that really can't handle them. Generally, an old 'puter or graphics card but I have remember Nick having issues on his brand new laptop because the internal graphics chip couldn't handle it at full pelt.
The other issue we found back in the very early days of MAIW the frame rates at Ian's first EGUL were appalling and it took us a few days to find out that none of the F-15s had an Alpha texture. That really does destroy fps if you have aircraft with no alphas.
It might be that some of the civvy AI aircraft have no alphas and that is doing it.

Finally, I do have one question. How are you viewing your traffic when you get this phenomenom, TVB, the traffic tools util or something else?
Steve
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tugpilotsmiffy
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Re: Traffic Files And Frame Rates

Post by tugpilotsmiffy »

Not viewing traffic at all at the time, at start up in cockpit, used dxtmpx to make sure no 32 bit, I think I'm going to do a full reinstall outside of the two programme files folders, so the next couple of days spare time all booked now, it may be this laptop as still not fixed the MSMXl issue yet either, at least I now what I'll be using my spare time for over the next few days, cheers guys

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