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Sinking AI at RJOI

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TimC340
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Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

I don't know if this has been flagged up before, but I dropped into RJOI to have a look at what was going on, and noticed that the landing aircraft were sinking into the surface, while the spawned aircraft were at the correct level. I'm pretty sure this is an error in the altitude in the AFCAD, which appears to be 7ft, while the sim (P3Dv4.4 in my case) believes the airfield should be at 10ft. The version of RJOI I'm using is from Matrix, and I have no other version in my libraries. I am using Orbx Global Vector, which is the only other addon active in this area.

I can fix this myself for my own use, I believe, but it may be affecting others.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by clickclickdoh »

Altitude error is exactly what is happening. The scenery was designed for FS9 and FSX which use the same airport altitude. P3D uses a different airport altitude. John put a fiz for it in his latest update. I guess the fix hasn't made it to the matrix yet.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Greg »

Actually, I believe I gave John the file that was already in Matrix ;)

Tim, have a look in "\MAIW_ASIA\MAIW_ASIA_WORLD\Scenery". Can you verify that you have the file "RJOI_ADEP4_BN_2018_ALT.bgl" in there?
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

Hi Greg. Yes, it's there - dated 21/07/2018. I've adjusted the AFCAD, but as far as I know I can't access the CVX file to adjust the airport background (or there's a technique to that I haven't learned!).
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Greg »

No you can't import a CVX file in ADE. Without Brent's original source file you'd need to delete the original CVX fix and build a new one. Also, it looks like you have the ugly default photoreal background for Iwakuni active in your scenery library so it doesn't matter if you make a background poly, you won't see it anyway until you deactivate the default background.

But it's not clear to me what you're trying to do. The scenery should work fine with the files that are in Matrix even if the AFD has a different elevation than the default scenery (that's what the ALT file is for). It was confirmed by others and I've had no other reports about elevation issues... Did the issues occur after you adjusted the AFD file, or also before with a vanilla Matrix setup?
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Firebird »

You may be teaching me something here that I have not touched upon yet, but as far as i know you don't need to touch the cvx.

The alt file is purely a height file which simulates altering the default built in height to the same height as the afcad.
So in theory if you have the alt file in place you should not need to alter the height of the afcad, or cvx or anything. The alt file brings the default height to the same as the afcad, which in this case - if I understand it correctly - is 7'.

If you had the alt file in place and you had not altered the afcad altitude then you should not have the problem UNLESS the Orbx Global Vector has altered the default height.
Remember that all addons are designed for a vanilla P3D system, with no addons at all.

Whilst i was tyoing this I downloaded and installed the Pacific files from the Matrix.
6.994751 is the altitude from alt file (RJOI_ADEP4_BN_2018_ALT.bgl)
6.994751 is the altitude from the Matrix afcad (RJOI_2018_ADE9_BN.bgl)

As you can see they are identical, so either the ALT file is not in an active folder, or there is another afcad lurking in your system, or something else is interfering here.

May i suggest that you uninstall and re-install asia again to insure a good clean unmodified install, then switch off the Orbyx system and see what it looks like.
If the problem has gone away then switch Orbyx back on and see if the problem returns. At the very least you will have identified the cause.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by clickclickdoh »

Greg wrote: 17 Jun 2019, 19:47 Actually, I believe I gave John the file that was already in Matrix ;)

Oops. Well, that's what I get for zoning out when the adults starting talking P3D
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

Hi Steve. I've just read your post, but in the meantime I'd altered the AFCAD in ADE to match the expected elevation of 10'. That worked. I suspect that Orbx Global Vector has slightly altered the elevation from vanilla P3D, which is why Greg's ALT file didn't work in my installation. The only slight gotcha is that F35s are still wandering around with their wheels underground, but I guess they're using the helo AFCAD which I haven't touched yet.

The reason I asked about the CVX is that if you alter a field elevation in ADE, it always warns you to separately change the background elevation, as it doesn't do so automatically. I assume with an AFCAD originally designed for FS9, that's not an issue. As for the photoreal background, I'm pretty sure I can find that and delete it.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Firebird »

Tim, that is not a problem. Coming from the FS9 world CVX files are one of the things that I have not had to mince around with - yet.

I am curious as the helo afcad. Is this part of the Matrix as well? What is it called?

However, I then re-read your reply and noticed that you said you set your afcad to 10'. This is wrong. This is the P3D default height, not the correct height of the afcad which is 7'. This is why your F-35s are below the ground. The alt file has set your default P3D airfield height to 7', you have the afcad set to 10' - hence the sinking.

If you are in too deep to try and figure it out then de-install the Asia region and re-install it. As my download proved you will have the two files at the correct height and it should work OK, unless there is another afcad that needs checking.

Hopefully I am not confusing you too much here.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

Steve, I think you’ve misunderstood me. With the RJOI afcad at the Matrix default of 7ft, in my installation all aircraft sink, and that’s with Greg’s ALT file installed. Altering the afcad to 10ft elevation eliminates that problem. Reinstalling the airfield, either individually or by a full Matrix reinstallation, brings the problem back, as I would expect. Having solved it to my satisfaction, I’m happy now to leave it with my minor modification. In my case, I was just sightseeing, noticed the issue and was intrigued enough to do something about it (maybe I have too much time on my hands!). Hopefully, flagging it up will help anyone who spends a lot of time in Japan and has a similar set up of P3Dv4 and Orbx.

As for the helo afcad, yes, it’s also part of the Matrix installation (there’s also a seaplane afcad). I can’t remember the faux-ICAO code used off the top of my head (RJHX?) as I’m not at my computer, but I’ll fire it up later and alter the elevation on that too. I might have a wander around some more Japanese fields to see if there are any similar problems elsewhere.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

Just to add, with an up-to-date Orbx installation, you are encouraged by their FTX Central installation app to run its elevation correction routine whenever new, non-Orbx airfields are added to the sim. In my case, I don’t think I’ve done that since Matrix was last updated, but it can have the effect of overriding ALT files on third-party airports. It is possible to except specific airfields from this routine if you suspect it may cause a problem. It’s fairly well known among Orbx FTX users that it does indeed cause a problem sometimes; for those who use any UK2000 products, it’s definitely a good idea to except their airfields. That may be the case for MAIW/Matrix airfields too.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Firebird »

Tim,
It does sound like you have done some testing and it does sound like Orbx is indeed the cause of your problem. I say this purely as nobody else has reported the same issue that you are having.

It sounds like you you might need to alter the helo afcad to the same height as the main base.

One thing that occurs to me is that the cause of your issue may be that Orbx alters the height of the base back to the P3D default. It seems to be the only logical thing to me for it to cause this.
If this is the case then it also occurs that if you actually remove the ALT file this will solve your issue as well.
Logic says that as this alters the P3D default height then removing it will leave the default height at 10' Try it.

If it does remember that every update of the region will re-install the file.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

Ha! Yes, should have though of removing the ALT file! I've altered the helo afcad now, and that's worked as expected.

I suspect there are a lot of P3D users using Orbx (no 'Y'!), as it hugely improves on the default landclasses, and, in areas where it provides specific scenery (such as UK), it's absolutely brilliant. For example, it includes in UK many disused and re-purposed airfields which saves a lot of work in ADE if you want to fill out your local area. I do make many of these fields anyway, as I enjoy doing so and I have a less strict focus than the 'current military only' mission of MAIW. But then, I treat P3D as more of a 'train set' than a flight simulator - I like to watch the world go by, and flight simulators are work for me!
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Firebird »

It seems that we are in agreement of the cause and fix.

Please remember what I said earlier that any Asia update WILL re-add the ALT file plus overwrite the amended afcads so you need to make sure that you have backups to readily re-install them.

You may well have a good point about Orbx. The issue here though is one that goes all the way back to the beginning of the org. You can't produce variations in scenery for every possibility out there so you have to produce for the vanilla installation only.
This is especially true where payware scenery is involved. We can't expect everybody to pay for something even if it was only 5 Dollars/Pounds/Euros.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

Totally agree, Steve, and I do bear that in mind whenever I install third-party software; I have to be prepared to make modifications somewhere, somehow - and I always back them up. Fortunately, I find that process interesting. Frustrating, sometimes, but interesting nonetheless.

In testing RJHX (the helo afcad), I've discovered that the runway directions are transposed - 20 should be 02, and vice-versa. Also, there are no runway starts, so no traffic will depart the runway. Further, there appears to be duplication of traffic files for some units. I have no military traffic files anywhere other than in Matrix (except a few of my own which are kept elsewhere), but the inconsistency in naming the files makes it difficult to isolate the ones I need to examine. More 'interesting' diagnosis...!
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Firebird »

A lack of start positions does not affect traffic. Start positions are only there for initial loading in game for user aircraft. Does not affect AI one bit.

I checked my Atsugi installation, the original FS9 one, and did not find an RJHX, but it does have a JTAX for helos. That one has rwys 18/36 and are not transposed.

I downloaded the Asia pack again and did not find any RJHX in it so I am guessing that that file is another addon from somewhere. Incidentally, JTAX is not part of the Asia pack either so I don't comment any further on that.

Now on the traffic side of things it is very likely that there are dupes. The only traffic files and then we have a lot of updates from John and Brent and it maybe that some flights have been duplicated without us realising. All you need to do is tell us which traffic files contain dupes and we can establish a fix.

With your experience you are aware of where the Matrix files are installed, i.e. you specified where they were to go to. As these are completely separate from your P3D installation - or at least should be as this is what is recommended - than it should be easy to spot third party afcads and deal with them accordingly. The Everything search tool is a god send here. So quick and easy.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by TimC340 »

Hmm. Interesting. I'm not aware of having downloaded any third-party AFCADs that I've then put in Matrix (which, as you say, is in a separate MAIW folder). My own AFCADs are also separate from P3D, and I've never made one for anywhere in Japan! I wonder if it's been included in John's F35 or UH60 packs? The AFCAD is RJXH_ADE9_BN.bgl, so I assume it was constructed by the author of the RJOI AFCAD (RJOI_2018_ADE9_BN.bgl)

Also interesting on the runway starts - I've always thought they were required! I'll have a play in ADE and see what effect they actually have.

It's going to take me a while to track down where the duplicates are. As I say, the inconsistencies in traffic file naming protocols is making it awkward to find that out, but I'll get there. Right now, I've been sidetracked as I've discovered that most traffic callsigns aren't being enunciated at this field, so I'm having a play with EVP to try and create the missing ones - no, they're not in the MAIW Voicepacks folder in Matrix!
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Firebird »

You are correct about the traffic file names which is why we are trying to implement a strategy 15 years after the event!

It will take time to iron out the kinks. For us the hardest job is to go back to the beginning of time, invent a strategy, modify if necessary as we go along and then try to see how we can apply to the non-official packs produced by our staff afterwards.
Once complete it should enable everyone to just plug and play with new packs in the future, whilst also enabling people that like retro traffic to have their fun as well.

You are correct in that RJXH_ADE9_BN.bgl would have been produced by Brent, i found it now as before I was searching for RJHX as specified. I can confirm that the ends are indeed transposed even in the FS9 version.
The afcad I was talking about was the helo rwy from RJTA. God knows why I got Atsugi on the brain. However at least those confusions have been identified.
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by clickclickdoh »

RJXH was added to the Iwakuni project in either the 2nd or 3rd generation of the project.. not exactly sure which. It was created to activate the shoreline helicopter pads/VTOL deck to keep the slow moving vertical landing traffic out of the pattern for the main runway. If you modify the altitude of the main scenery, you will need to modify RJXH to match since it is essentially a second invisible airport overlaid on the first. You don't need an .alt file for it since it is not a default airport.

I have found through testing that Runway Starts do appear to have a very limited secondary function other than just placing the player aircraft. On very short runway, AI seem to do a better job of landing near the end of the runway instead of landing long if there are runway starts placed. So, I try to get them in on all my Helo type runways. Guess I missed them on that one. During testing the F-35s and helicopters were working fine though. Are the AI getting stuck on the runway itself or are they departing the runway then getting stuck? I'm asking because some of the taxi spots are really far away on that AFCAD and there are very few taxi paths for the AI to take, so there may be a V-22 or UH-60 taxiing from a long way away that has the right of way over the aircraft being held near the runway departure. This will cause it to appear as if the traffic is stuck until the aircraft taxing for departure passes it.

Traffic file name protocols were established after the Iwakuni project was first created, so some files may have received the new naming protocols and some may not have. Mostly the file names retained some indication of what they are. For example:

Traffic_VMGR-152.bgl
Traffic_MIL_JAPAN_USMC_IWAKUNI_RJOI_VMGR-152_FSX.bgl
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Re: Sinking AI at RJOI

Post by Firebird »

clickclickdoh wrote: 18 Jun 2019, 15:44 I have found through testing that Runway Starts do appear to have a very limited secondary function other than just placing the player aircraft. On very short runway, AI seem to do a better job of landing near the end of the runway instead of landing long if there are runway starts placed.

If this is indeed the case I stand enlightened.
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