ai aircraft on a carrier

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Bressand_1953
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ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Bressand_1953 »

Hi everyone
I have made an airport on a carrier and the ai aircrafts who are landing on this carrier are not able to follow the line of the taxi path because the radius of curvature are to small, and they go out of the area of the carrier. Is there any solution to force the ai aircraft to follow the center line of the taxi path.
Thank you in advance for your answers
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Bressand_1953 »

I forgot to specify that is on P3D v5
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Firebird »

The normal reason that an aircraft can't make a turn is that its speed is too high.
Now rather than alter the default taxy speed the simple way around it is to add more normal nodes in the taxiway just before the turn. Each node slows the aircraft down. The slower the aircraft the tighter it turns.

Try that.
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Bressand_1953 »

Thank you, I will try
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John Young
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by John Young »

You can also try increasing the nose wheel steering angle in the contact points in the aircraft.cfg file. If that doesn't help, you could then try decreasing the distance between the main wheels in the same section. If that doesn't help, you could try moving the nosewheel closer to the main wheels.

John
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Bressand_1953 »

Sorry Steve, it's doesn't work. It doesn't seem to be a problem of speed. Thanks anyway. I will try the John solutions.

François
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Bressand_1953 »

Thanks John, your third solution works very well. If I don't abuse your patience, do you also have a solution to increase the acceleration of the aircraft when it takes off on a short runway ?
Thanks you in advance
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by John Young »

The simple answer to increasing acceleration, is that you can either reduce the weight of the aircraft (AI aircraft only use the "empty_weight" value) or increase the static thrust of the engines (or the thrust scalar). Changing any of these values, however, is likely to have consequences elsewhere. It's likely to influence how the aircraft approaches to land - its speed, it's attitude and stopping distance. You are then into playing with parameters like the lift scalars in the flaps settings and probably a few more in order to tame the approach.

The dilemma is very common in designing carrier-based (or "wet") FDEs, which are a science in their own right. By all means, try changing some of the values yourself, but do it one at a time and test a complete IFR circuit between changes. Once you have the circuit right, you should also test a point to point flight at altitude, to ensure the aircraft doesn't slow below the stall speed during the climb at the higher flight levels. Make sure you keep a note of previous values (use the "//" notation to make a note) so you can change back again.

There are a few people here who are more skilled than I am, in designing these types of FDEs and I am sure they will be glad to chip in with more detailed advice. Try a simple power setting change and observe what happens around the circuit, as a first step. You may then discover what else might need to change.

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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Firebird »

I will try to explain some of the things to take into account, and this will deal only with the take off.

Firstly you have to deal with the acceleration off the deck, it has to take off shorter.
More power is the obvious thing, and as John says this can be used in conjunction with lower weight but it won't solve everything as they just fly straight off the deck. What you can do is increase the AoA at low speed to get the nose up quicker. This does not negate it flying off the runway but if you manage it right it looks more realistic. The bad news is that this can't be don't in the config file. It can only be down in the air file.

Now, your problems start right after take-off.
So assuming that you have just done the simple thing off increasing the power, with or without decreasing the weight.
The first big problem you hit is that you will exceed the gear retraction limit before the gear is up.
Now you can increase that limit but it looks wrong. I think that one of the first attempts I did the aircraft hit over 400 kts before the gear was up.

So to counteract that you have to reduce the acceleration. So you have to increase it and reduce it at the same time.
The way to decrease acceleration is to increase drag.
The optimum way to do this on take off is to increase drag on the gear. Note here that if your sim does use flaps on take off you have that option as well but FS9, for example does not. You can fool the sim to visually deploy flaps but nothing is altered in sim.

So keeping things simple you can increase drag on the gear, as this does not do anything when the aircraft is on the ground, and the gear can be up before the gear limit speed.

The next problem is that once the gear is up you need to slow the acceleration down or it will not be realistic, so then you have to increase drag according to speed.

If you manage to balance all this then you then have to watch the landing.
With the vast increase in power you may not be have much or any power applied on approach, therefore you could get issues with the aircraft slowing down. Then the gear comes down. Massive increase in power required to offset the drag. If you have a sim which can have an effect which will trigger according conditions you could easily get the afterburners come in on approach.

Finally, for the post-take off flight characteristics you need to alter things so that the land-based and sea-based characteristics are in the same ball park or it will be obvious to anybody that uses them.

Finally, carrier-based aircraft can't be sent to land bases and land based aircraft can't be sent to carriers. The two just can't mix for obvious reasons.

To summarise I deliberately said that I would only deal with take offs. You will note that I mentioned other parts of the flight regime but this is only to show how what you do for take offs changes every part of the envelope.

A simple solution would be to get Rob B's catapult xml to work for AI aircraft. The last thing I heard it would only work for flyable aircraft.
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Bressand_1953 »

Thank you both for all your explanations. They make me able to find a satisfactory solution. I move the nose wheel closer the main wheels to reduce the radius of curvature and increased the thrust scalar from 1 to 4. I can't increase it because when the aircraft is landing and breaking, it is rocking forward due to the shift of the nose wheel. But the result is fine.
I have a last problem to submit to you. I am not able to have my aircraft landing on one runway (deck) and take off on an other one (catapult). I have however specified on ADE in the pattern of each runway, which is for the landing and which is for the taking off. Do you have an idea off solution ?
Thank you by advance
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by John Young »

I don't think there is a solution to the deck switch unfortunately. Martin gave up trying to do the same thing.

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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Firebird »

I think was mentioned earlier, but maybe it was in another thread, in short you can't.
I am convinced that it is due to the close proximity of the two runways. There are some land bases that also have this problem.

Several people have spent months trying to get that to work. For now, with the state of the sims as they are you will have to accept that the carrier can only have one main runway.
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by bismarck »

Hi all, lot of time I do not contribute on the forum.
I didn't read accurately all this discussion, but having achieved some good result in the past, I think I can share what I did years ago, for the old FS9.
Starting from the package Carrier2006, I've modified a couple of AFD. In attach the AFDs and flightplans used in a little pack I've never shared. It needs many aircraft with modified FDEs (by me and far from perfection). I've never asked the permission to the original authors, so I used it only on my PC.

On a single Carrier, here you have three different airports that work all togheter.
Hope this can help in some way.

Giorgio
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Firebird »

I shall have to find time to read that.
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by jetpilot1980 »

So the three carriers in the exact same spot as each other does seem to make for an interesting concept... But my questions on this would be:

1. I assume the concept is to just make one way FPs where the aircraft takeoff from the departure configured airport then land on the arrival configured one... But once an aircraft arrives how does it "jump" back to the departure carrier to take off again?

2. Since I see that both airports have the same parking spots. How do you prevent aircraft from parking on top of each other or "double parking"? Since in theory an aircraft that just landed on the landing airport could pick the same spot location as an aircraft that has not yet departed the departure airport... As we all know P3d doesn't seem to have respect for solid objects when it comes to AI; as they taxi through each other and stack on top of each other all the time...
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by jetpilot1980 »

Here is the third carrier so looks like two departure carriers and one arrival to simulate two cats in use. But since parking spots are still in line with parking spots on the other two airports this would in theory open it up to "triple parking" in those two spots...
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by Firebird »

I did take a brief look and I did see that it uses multiple afcads which would solve the original problem but does then throw up secondary problems as mentioned. If the same spots are used by both afcads then they can of course be used by both afcads and leads to the double parking issue mentioned.
To a certain extent you could mitigate it by re-ordering the slots, so that on one afcad the slots are ordered 1-20 and on the other one they are ordered 20-1.

As afar as I know though there is no actual solution to that.

It brings us back to the original answer which is that, so far, nobody has got what you want to work.
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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by John Young »

It's the same principle as making multiple helicopter AFCADs overlaid over the main airfield AFCAD. Sometimes it works first time, but more often than not, the AI jumps AFCADs at the red node after landing, disappears after a short while and crashes the sim. At least with helicopter AFCADs, the overlays are in different positions to help mitigate that effect. I've spent countless hours trying to rectify that problem, by moving the runway, the nodes and the ARP in the overlays. With 3 carrier AFCADs placed in exact register, you are just asking for trouble.

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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

Post by bismarck »

Hi all, having a perfect carrier operation, is not possible, as you all know.
What I shared is something similar to carrier operations.
It was intended to setup a flight (starting at 12:00 GMT) and watch aircraft take-off and landing, plus some flypass.
Once all the aircraft have landed, you can switch-off your FS! :-)
If you stay there waiting for the take-off, you'll see the AC pushback, and depart from the "wrong" airport.

1. I assume the concept is to just make one way FPs where the aircraft takeoff from the departure configured airport then land on the
arrival configured one... But once an aircraft arrives how does it "jump" back to the departure carrier to take off again?

It doesn't jump. As said above, it depart from the "wrong" airport.

2. Since I see that both airports have the same parking spots. How do you prevent aircraft from parking on top of each other or "double
parking"? Since in theory an aircraft that just landed on the landing airport could pick the same spot location as an aircraft that has not
yet departed the departure airport... As we all know P3d doesn't seem to have respect for solid objects when it comes to AI; as they taxi
through each other and stack on top of each other all the time...

Every parking spot, has a unique parking code replicated in the relevant aircraft.cfg. Double parking in the same spot, is not possible.

The first screeshot of the jetpilot post, is 13AC where all the aircraft land. It must have all the parking spot.
The second one, is AC13. It has all the PS because, probably, i didn't remove the PS of CV13, just to save time.

AC13 and CV13 have the runways in different position, to simulate contemporary take-off.

From John post:
"It's the same principle as making multiple helicopter AFCADs overlaid over the main airfield AFCAD. Sometimes it works first time, but
more often than not, the AI jumps AFCADs at the red node after landing...."

Not exactly the same but very similar. For sure, it doesn't work the first time. :-( I've lost the count of the hours spent to make it works! :-)



Regards, Giorgio

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Re: ai aircraft on a carrier

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