Military AI Works

We are seeking help from FSX users to help us solve a phenomenon of different results in flap animation that might be related to specific versions of the FSX game.

If FSX users have "TrafficToolBox" (TTB) enabled - it's an add-on tool in the SDK that displays the flight parameters of AI aircraft in the vicinity of the user - so much the better, but they can still help if it's not.

This is a link to a very simple test package containing a single HS-Andover, a test airfield strip and a test traffic file:

https://btcloud.bt.com/web/app/share/invite/12dSuRTfn9

All we need you to do is install the 3 components from the zip and observe a circuit of the aircraft. We are interested in how the flaps deploy on taxi and take-off and again on landing. If TTB is available, we would like to know the readings for the flap positions in each case, like this:





We also need your FSX version so we can compare results for each.

The test package includes the information you see here plus the 4 observations we need. If you are able to help, please download the package and come back and post your results in this thread.

Many thanks in anticipation, John, Steve and Tim.

John, during my test the model looks very good and behaves very well (I think):

Spawning 9:30 GMT: Flaps are up and backdoor is open
Still sleeping, 9:58 GMT: Nav lights/beacons come on
Clearance/push back: Engines start, backdoor closes
(pre) taxi: Flaps to half
TTB Flaps / Spoilers (%) = 0/0

Take off/climb out: Gear retracts, flaps go up
TTB Flaps / Spoilers (%) = 0/0

On approach, ~8 miles from the runway: Gear goes down, flaps to half
TTB Flaps / Spoilers (%) = 50/0

On approach, ~5 miles from the runway: Flaps to full down
TTB Flaps / Spoilers (%) = 50/0

Final approach, ~2.4 miles from the runway: Flaps stay full down
TTB Flaps / Spoilers (%) = 100/0

After touchdown: Flaps stay full down
TTB Flaps / Spoilers (%) = 100/100

End of roll out: Flaps to half
TTB Flaps / Spoilers (%) = 0/0

Parking/shutdown: Flaps go up and backdoor opens

I tested with FSX Deluxe 10.0.61637.0 (FSX-Xpack.20070926-1421)

Hope this helps, Henk.

Thanks Henk, that's more detail than we need, but you have covered the critical deployment which is the position of the flaps at taxi and take-off in your FSX version.

If we could have a few more tests please, particularly for FSX-SE, that would be great.

John

Evening John,

I hhave still got FSX:SE installed but I don't have TTB running.
These are the results from the test...

Taxi & Take off was at Half flaps as per pic 1.
On approach full flaps were deployed as per pic 2.
Once speed reduced flaps returned to half until parking and shutdown when they returned to fully raised.

Flight Simulator X Deluxe : Steam Edition
10.0.626150.0 (FSX.20150710-1055)

Hi John,

I just tested on FSX:SE as well and got the same results as morbidfred.

I had TTB enabled in my dll.xml but for some reason it doesn't seem to load - perhaps an issue with the SDK versions???

BTW the model looks really nice.

Gavin

For those of you that have issues with have issues with TTB loading, especially FSX:SE uses then this is what to check for.

In your FSX roaming folder, C:\Users\xxxxx\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\FSX there should be a dll.xml file.
In that there should a section for Traffic Toolbox.
In mine it looks like this :- The key things here are that the path is correct. You can see that I altered mine to the full path rather than the relative one plus you need to ensure that the Disabled parm is set to False.

If the entry is there, and those two parms are set correctly then TTB should appear in the menu.

We do have a very specific reason for asking for people to do this test with TTB active.

I would be particularly interested to see Morbidfred's test with TTB active.

Morning Steve,

I've attached the screenshots from the test, hope it helps.

It does actually help but now it has caused me more confusion.

The reason that we asked for people to test is this.
I have exactly the same version as you. FSX:SE 10.0.626150.0 (FSX.20150710-1055).

The issue is that when I was testing for John, I was seeing something unexpected.
TTB, from the same version, reports that the flaps extend to 100% on taxy out. This has two issues, one the obvious visual impact. The other is that John wanted the take off speed reduced. A simple change resulted in just over 100kts - due to full flap - which is what was required but John's testing with that change resulted in a lift off at over 120kts.

The other effect is that with flaps deployed on take off it means that the aircraft does have extra drag and therefore does not accelerate as fast until the flaps come up. Blooming useful for carrier ops but not applicable here.

In essence we found that there were two AI engines in play here. One that had flaps at 0% on taxy out and one with flaps at 100% on taxy out.
What we are trying to do is find out exactly how many of the different FSX versions out there have each type.

After the explanation you can know see my confusion. You have exactly the same FSX version as myself but you get different results. The big question is why?
Incidently, my TBB version is also the same as the game 10.0.626150.0 (FSX.20150710-1055) dated 30/11/2015 sized at 145KB.

Hi Steve,

My TTB is different...

From memory the FSX:SE SDK did not contain the complete SDK (I think), it's possible I have installed the full SDK at a later date?
Honestly though I can't remember, sorry.

TTB details,
product name: Lockheed Martin Prepar3d
file version: 3.4.2219868
file size: 172k

OK that might explain the difference although why that would alter the actual game engine I can't understand.

For me I don't remember downloading the SDK at all. What makes me think this is that I never actually used FSX unless it was testing mainly for John.

The X:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\FSX\SDK folder is dated exactly the same date as the rest of the FSX installation folders, which would suggest that it was installed on exactly the same day.

I will send you a link, via pm, to that complete folder that I have installed. My guess is that unless you are using FSX:SE it will not work, as John could not get it to load with his boxed version.
Back up up what have in your appropriate folder and substitute the files I send. You therefore will not need to amend your dll.xml file.

Could you then please test the taxy out with the new files.

I've attached the screenshots from a test with the swapped out TTB files,

Thanks for that.

I have to say JY thought that I was a nut job, and you appear to have proved him correct. The weird thing is that the HS780 is not the only aircraft that has this. JYs C-130s are also affected, at least. Have I hit upon a seemingly secret parm that activates this behaviour.
Very, very weird.

It would seem that the best thing for now is others could continue to test. If there are no anomalies like mine then just say that. However, if you hit the same as me if you could supply a pic and the version of your FSX then it would be helpful.

I shall now return to the funny farm.

Firebird wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 08:25 For those of you that have issues with have issues with TTB loading, especially FSX:SE uses then this is what to check for.

In your FSX roaming folder, C:\Users\xxxxx\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\FSX there should be a dll.xml file.
In that there should a section for Traffic Toolbox.
In mine it looks like this :-

Code: Select all

  <Launch.Addon>
    <Name>Traffic Toolbox</Name>
    <Disabled>False</Disabled>
    <ManualLoad>False</ManualLoad>
    <Path>X:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\FSX\SDK\Environment Kit\Traffic Toolbox SDK\traffictoolbox.dll</Path>
  </Launch.Addon>

The key things here are that the path is correct. You can see that I altered mine to the full path rather than the relative one plus you need to ensure that the Disabled parm is set to False.

If the entry is there, and those two parms are set correctly then TTB should appear in the menu.

We do have a very specific reason for asking for people to do this test with TTB active.

I would be particularly interested to see Morbidfred's test with TTB active.

Learn something new everyday - All these years I never realized the SDK was installed as part of FSX-SE

Gavin

Well it was for me, Gavin but others indicate that it wasn't so I would say check first.

I have been beating my head against the wall for a couple of months trying to get TTB to work with no success. I even had a copy of the dll.xml from a previous install that worked, and I tried that file changing the to path to the FSX install location, no luck. Here is the TTB dll.xml entry on my system:

<Launch.Addon>
<Name>Traffic Toolbox</Name>
<Disabled>False</Disabled>
<ManualLoad>False</ManualLoad>
<Path>H:\Microsoft\SDK\Environment Kit\Traffic Toolbox SDK\traffictoolbox.dll</Path>
</Launch.Addon>

It seems to match yours Steve. So obviously something else is screwed up.

FSX:SE has a partial SDK installed with the game. Some elements of the full SDK are missing and were never released, though I can’t remember which ones offhand. That’s why so many developers use the p3Dv1.4 SDK for FSX:SE work.

My tests of John’s Andover in FSX:SE showed it behaving properly, though I can’t quote TTB numbers. I can get some of the information via the Orbx ‘radar’ that comes with their ATC tower (and which is integrated into P3D but is an Addon for FSX) and from LittleNavMap, both of which give speed readouts. I have absolutely no idea why you are getting a different behaviour, Steve, but it is intriguing!

Steve has solved the problem, but he is unable to post on the forum at the moment until Greg sorts him out.

The Andover is OK, as are other aircraft using this animation in FSX. Steve's problem was to do with Super Traffic Board. I'll let him explain that one when he can get back here.

In the meantime thanks to all for your tests. I'm quite relieved with the results.

John

I got Steve’s PM too, John. I have STB for FSX, so I’ll see if I can duplicate his findings - just for interest’s sake. Real Life (TM) has taken over a bit in the last week or so, but I’ll get back on with Thorney tomorrow.

Hi John,
sorry for my late testing, here are the results

1. For taxi and take-off, the flaps are half down.
2. For final approach and landing , the flaps start half down and closer to the airport they come fully down.
3. As soon the plane slows down, the flaps retract to a half down position and remain there until reaching the parking position.
4. When the engines are shutting down, the flaps retract completely.
5. I am using FSX Deluxe.

I hope I could help.

Olaf

Thank you Olaf, that adds to the confirmation that the Andover flaps are working fine.

John