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Windows 11 (very early)

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Windows 11 (very early)

Post by Firebird »

Gents,

I know that it is some time off - 6 months or so, but I thought that people might like to see the new OS in its early days. The article on Neowin is the best I have seen so far for showing the look and feature changes.

Some will find it interesting and some will not like it as people do get used to a certain way things work. However, it is coming. You will have to move eventually, so if the article helps you to start to acclimatize to the change then it is a good thing.

https://www.neowin.net/news/here-are-th ... indows-11/
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by msm8378 »

So basically the new UI is giving windows users many features and functions that have been available in linux for the last 20 years...

I want to go back to the days where my T/RS Model 4D with 12MB Suitcase HDD was considered top of the line...never seen a better platform for Space Invaders since... DOS and Wildcat BBS... MS Windows 3.1... MSFS v1 with Mallard Scenery Expansion Packs...

Wife just looked over my shoulder and smacked me in the head...sorry having a senior moment... 8)

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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by Firebird »

You are talking to somebody that still clings to his Amiga 3000T because the OS and design philosophy were far ahead of the time. Trouble was Commodore were cr*p at marketing something very good whilst MS were able to market cr*p superbly well.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

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Love the Amiga systems...I had a Commodore 128 in 1985. I forget the name of the magazine, but I subscribed to one that always had machine/assembly language scripts for different games you could program into the C128. I killed a lot of hours punching numbers into that thing to create sprites and sounds, etc. in the barracks back in the day...
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by Firebird »

OK update on Windows 11.

According to the latest new release Windows 11 will be rolled out from Oct 5. This will be a staggered rollout so it might take a couple of months to get to all.

However, the key thing here is that you must have a compatible CPU. MS announced the other day that the threshold has been reduced to 7th gen Intel processors e.g i5-7600. Anything that is a 6th gen CPU or below, e,g, i5-6600, will not be compatible. It does not matter that your CPU meets the Mhz requirement. This is NOT made plainly obvious in MS posts.

It is basically a start at an attempt to stop PCs being taken over by botnets, amongst other things.

The news also stated that IF your hardware is not compatible you can download the Windows 11 iso and you will be able to install it.
There is a massive but here. Windows 11 will check that you are hardware compatible and not let you get upgrades until you are. This will also include security updates.

So I would advise anybody on 10 to download the Windows 11 compatibility tool to see if you meet the requirements. You may also require a bios upgrade as well for TPM compatibility.

I would hate for users to upgrade to 11 and then find out that they are screwed until they update their hardware. Best to do that first.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by TimC340 »

TPM on older CPUs/mobos is a bit of a lottery. Even on new ones it isn't great - my Aorus Pro X570/Ryzen 3900 combo regularly reports that the CPU has 'changed' and I need to accept the TPM again. My other computer is rather older, with a 6th-gen i5 on a Z170 mobo. TPM can be fitted as a module, but no-one has any. Several commentators have speculated that Microsoft may drop the requirement for TPM for Win 11 as it really doesn't work well, but MS have stayed quiet on that.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

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I would agree that MS have not exactly been clear about a lot of it. For example, my Mhz was clearly within range for the upgrade but the compatibility tool showed me as unacceptable on the CPU. Only when I drilled down into about the third layer of acceptable CPUS did I find that only gen 8 and above CPUs were acceptable. My guess is that the only reason that Gen 7 CPUs have since been added is that they will fit into a a certain motherboard configuration that has TPM.

Now from what I understand you have to have TPM, either chip or software emulated, but not that you have to have it switched on. I am guessing that this will be force later on.

Again I would urge people to check the tool to see if they need to take or plan for changes.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by msm8378 »

Thanks for the update Steve. I was wondering about this as well. I have a Gen 7 Intel Chip in my Toshiba Satellite laptop, but the device manager shows TPM present as well.

I think that before all is said and done MS is going to either end up rethinking these chip dependent features or - most likely - will end up creating two versions of Windows 11. No way will the small business community nationwide (or even worldwide) play ball with being forced into huge capital expenditures buying new computer systems on the fly like this. Heck, I even know of a number of businesses still running Windows XP.

Would like to know your thoughts on exactly why MS is going down this path in the first place. What do you think is the "behind the curtains" reasoning for this ... are we talking technical or marketing reasons, or both?

Mat
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

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Hi Mat,
As I said before this is about trying to eliminate botnets in the future and help reduce the number of ransomware attacks. How successful they will be is up for debate. I am not one for defending MS but it has to be said that if they don't do anything then they are on to a hiding to nothing.

I did read some months ago, and I wish I could remember the piece on what exactly they were doing and why, but I think that they have also slated minimum hardware specs for laptops to run their new OS.

My gut feeling here is that there will not be two versions of OS. They will just enforce a standard for their latest version. My reason for thinking this is two-fold. Firstly, the support windows for the various versions of Windows 10 are a lot shorter than versions before Windows 10. They do not want the time, energy, and expense of supporting outdated systems. I can't really blame them for that.
Secondly, if you look what they have in place for 11 it is all about reducing future issues. What I mean is that they COULD have version 11 as 10 22H1. So why not?

It is all about getting users to conform to the latest software/hardware. I would not be surprised if they automatically force major updates to 11 as well.

Finally, going back to TPM and whether it works or not. I do not know, but I do remember a previous standard that MS enforced on everybody in this form. SecuROM. That was the standard that MS enforced right up until they realised that it could be used to hijack things and then they dropped it and everybody that bought software had to find hacks to get around the lack of support.

I hope that if they are going down this path they are a lot better of foretelling the future than they were.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by msm8378 »

Steve,

Appreciate your thoughts. Will be interesting to see how all of this progresses. As I said, I know of a number of small businesses that are still operating on Windows XP and 7 by way of an Intranet structure and only utilizing select machines on the Internet completely isolated from their Intranet.

Mat
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by Firebird »

OK I have some personal experience to report.
I am currently on a project to build two PCs that are Windows 11 compatible. The first one I have completed for the Missus.

After completion I downloaded and ran the MS PC Health checker to see if it was fully 11 compliant.
It noted 2 things.
1. TPM 2.0 not enabled.
2. Secure Boot not enabled.

I knew that the motherboard had a TPM software module built in so I went into the bios and enabled it, as per online info.

Reran the check and found that Secure Boot was still not enabled so more checking online and I found how to do that. However, in the bios it wouldn't let me enable that as the motherboard was in CSM rather UEFI mode. No problem, so i tried altering that but it would not take.

I had noticed on startup that a brief pic appeared with something like no GOP found graphics not enabled.
More research and it seems that this was the cause. The bios of your GPU must also be UEFI compliant. So I checked for the latest bios for the Nvidia GTX 670 and found a comment from Nvidia that no GeForce 6 series is UEFI compliant. I found that some third party companies that built these boards under their own brand would/did provide personalised bios mods with the GOP module included but not Nvidia.

It seems that the GeForce 6 boards do not have it but that the GeForce 9 boards do. Whether the GeForce 7 series do I don't know. How do you know whether your GPU is UEFI capable? It is really easy. Download the freeware proggy GPU-Z, the portable version will do, On the right hand side is a little box marked 'UEFI' if it is ticked you are OK, if it is not then you will at some point either flash a compatible bios or get a new GPU to get Windows 11.

My problem is easy to solve.
When I build my PC my GTX 970 will go in her machine and I will use the brand new RTX 3080 Founders Edition direct from Nvidia that I was fortunate to win a scramble for.

Why do I mention all this about UEFI? In simple terms to run Windows 11 your bios must be in UEFI mode and you therefore have to have UEFI compatible hardware. This would also seem to indicate that the drive that your boot partition is on has to in GPT format.
The drive can be converted from MBR to GPT in place and create a UEFI partition and MS supply a tool to enable you to do this but they don't make it to get to the situation to run the command that takes 10 secs.

I realise that maybe a lot of this is over the heads of a lot of people so please ask questions if there is something not clear.

I really would advise people that are thinking about going to 11 on their current hardware to download the check tool to see if they are OK or not. I thought I would be OK until I checked and it turned out that I basically needed a new PC.
If you are on 10 at the moment, MS announced that you can upgrade for free until mid-2022. This I guess is when 22H1 comes out. If you stay on 10 when 11 comes out then it was announced that you will get no more updates - not even security ones (I assume that 21H2 will be the last update.

I urge you all to check and see where you stand and to see if you are going to have to make changes.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by msm8378 »

I understand that in part MS feels this is a necessary evolution in their business modeling, but fear this is going to backfire spectacularly for them. The majority of businesses are not going to make the massive capital expenditures MS and the PC industry are counting on. My employer is discussing switching to MAC or I-Phone/I-Pad/I-Cloud devices, and have no intention of continuing utilizing MS Windows based systems starting Q3 FY22.

What are your thoughts on the core debate and from a business management/investment standpoint?

Thanks,

Mat
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by TimC340 »

Steve, can you provide references for the claim that Microsoft will cease support for Windows 10 from 2022? That is directly counter to what I understand, which is that Windows 10 will be supported to October 14, 2025 (see here) - though you must be running an up-to-date version; builds before 1909 are already out of support. I suspect that the 2025 date is more likely than 2022!

Perhaps more concerning is the fact that Intel CPUs prior to 8th Gen will not be supported, even with hardware TPM. They've slightly relaxed that to include a couple of specific 7th-Gen CPUs (see here). Like many, I'm sure, I have one computer that very happily runs P3Dv5 and MSFS on a 6600-series i5, and I'm in no rush to update it!

In the meantime, I'm rebuilding the Win10 installation on my main computer (which is Win11 compatible) for the second time this year after a driver update mangled the M.2 boot drive! Day 3 now. It's slightly concerning that my ADE installation is bigger than MSFS!

Edit: Windows 10 support from the horse's mouth. 14 Oct 2025 is indeed the date.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecy ... me-and-pro
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

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OK I must be honest here and say that I may not have used the exactly correct terminology mainly because I may be getting information from sources that may not be using the exact terminology either which helps create confusion. Apologies if I am unwittingly play any part in this.

On the question of support, I am not sure of exactly what is what. What I do know is that for most of us the support, for example, Windows 7 ended well before the actual MS support ended for it. What I mean here is that after a certain date you only get support if you pay extra for it. No sane individual would do that. What has been proved by MS is that they have reduced support for the releases of Win 10 to 18 months. So if they stick to this the predicted end is 18 months after the release of 21H2 which is due imminently - unless you are willing to pay for it. I do not doubt that EOS date for Win 10 is what is on that page Tim posted. The question is when is the end of free support - for us.

I have read, and again it must be stated that maybe the writer was not using the correct terminology, that MS will stop releasing Win 10 updates once Win 11 comes out and this will include security fixes. Exactly how strictly accurate this is, I can't say for sure. My guess is that it may well be only security fixes for 18 months. They did this with previous versions of the OS before support was stopped.

I would agree that businesses are very unaware of the impact. When I was at BA we were always behind the drag curve as they always wanted to make sure that there were no issues with software that they were using. This article on Neowin this week highlights how unprepared businesses and users are https://www.neowin.net/news/huge-survey ... indows-11/.

This leads me onto a little theory that is niggling my brain. It started with the original announcement that CPUs that were at or over a certain speed were compatible. I mean a quick search for the actual speed I found on an MS page just now "1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster with 2 or more cores on a compatible 64-bit processor or System on a Chip (SoC)."
This did not sound any warming bells until I ran the PC health utility. Which told me that my i5-6600K was not compatible. It was only after I drilled a lot further that I found that they weren't supporting anything less than gen 8 CPUs at the time. What I couldn't work out was why they went for the speed and not the CPU spec. Even now you still see the CPU speed spec being pronounced in articles.

Combining this with what i found out building the new PC about GPU bios seems to add up to the fact that ALL hardware that runs Win 11 has to be fully UEFI and TPM compatible. However, by making this statement as simple and stark as talking about min CPUs and GPUs would have caused an outcry about the individual cost involved to make PCs compatible. Especially at the time where there is a massive difference between CPU and GPU demand and supply.
They would have been under massive pressure to either alter the specs or delay for a couple of years until supply was better. As a business they want to support fewer versions of the OS to reduce costs. They also want better device security to avoid unsavoury characters taking over machines for nefarious reasons and thereby simplifying their support efforts.
I feel that it is forcing people to upgrade their hardware but not telling them directly and them finding out when it is too late to complain about it.

It boils down once it is released on Oct 5 it becomes a fait accompli. This is my personal theory, I can't claim to have read that anywhere it just seems to fit in with how aggressive MS have been over forcing people to upgrade to the latest 10 releases.
Another example of MS being aggressive is the announcement that all new laptops will have to have a spycam/webcam (choose the word you fond appropriate here) enabled to run Win 11. It has since been stated that existing laptop that meet the system spec will be OK it is just all new laptops released after Win 11 will have to have it.
I have also seen that all new PCs after release date will be Win 11. How true this will be I have no idea, but I have seen that new PCs will get priority in the upgrade rollout.
Initially it was reported all Win 10 users will be able to upgrade for free to 11, but what wasn't said was how long this offer lasted for. This week was the first time that i saw a post that stated a date - up til mid-2022. This I assume will be when 22H1 comes out.
There are a lot of little things that point me to that way of thinking.

Now I should state that I am not scaremongering here, I am saying what I have found out when going through an upgrade that I found I needed to do to achieve 11 compatibility.
It maybe that people out there have decided that they will just buy a whole new system when they have to. There is nothing wrong with that. My post here are aimed at people who are wanting to upgrade or thinking about doing so.

What I have found out, rather than read, is that UEFI, TPM2.0 and Secure Boot are paramount.
To achieve this you need a motherboard of a certain generation to get the TPM built in, which means a certain gen of CPU. You need to be completely UEFI capable to get Secure Boot, which means a certain gen of GPUs and seemingly HDs/SSDs formatted to GPT - which means a 64 bit OS.

For me to get the CPU, it meant a new motherboard. This also meant new RAM and a new GPU.

This is what I am trying to get across to people. Use the util see if you fall short anywhere.
If you do and you want to go to Win 11 at some point you are should now be aware of what is to come. If you want the free upgrade you have around 9 months to get it. If you decide to leave it until your hardware physically need replacing you will have to get Win 11 with that.

What I am saying here can't be taken as MS gospel. What I am saying is check for your selves to find out where you stand and be prepared for the future of your 'puting.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by TimC340 »

Steve, I think there's quite a lot here that is perhaps a little misleading.

'Support': you appear to mean personal, 1-on-1, technical support, which is free only for a limited period after purchase of any version of Windows. After this period (typically one year), technical support is paid for per incident, or - for a company - through a support agreement. Almost no private user will ever pay for technical support; there are a myriad of free sources of advice and support online (not least via Microsoft) for technical issues with Windows.

Microsoft 'support' (in the sense that they continue to security-update and monitor) Windows versions long after they are removed from sale. For example, Windows 7 received a large security and QoL update in June 2021. When they refer to versions of Windows 10 having support removed, they are talking about the technical support I refer to above. So the earliest version of Windows 10 for which you can ring up Microsoft and get advice about is presently 2004. All versions of Windows 10 from before that will continue to receive security updates for the foreseeable future. As updates for Windows 10 are free and generally device-agnostic, it is a bit of a quandry as to why anyone would not have the current version (21H1 right now) on their computer.

The October 2025 date refers to the final time that technical support will be offered to Windows 10 users, though large corporate customers may well be able to negotiate specific arrangements. For you and me, that date is largely irrelevant. Security updates will continue TFN, but there will be few, if any, updates to the UI thereafter.

Windows 11 has specific hardware requirements which MS has decided are necessary to protect both themselves and their customers, and so that they limit the amount of diversification and dilution of the work they have to do to maintain the levels of security we, and legislators, demand. While you will be able to install Win 11 on a non-compliant device, this is the reason why they will not offer support. It's yet to be seen whether installations on non-compliant devices will receive updates, but my guess is they will, at least as much as Win10 users will get.

I don't think there is any reason for Windows 10 users to fear that they will be left high-and-dry. As happens now for those few XP and Win7 users that still persist in their idiosyncrasy, basic security support is likely to continue for many years. OTOH, if you're building a new computer now, it's extremely unlikely you'd want to build one that isn't compatible with Win11 - but it is possible to do so, so you need to beware.

For those who want to upgrade to Win 11 without changing hardware, the CPU specification will be key. My older (now 6 years old) desktop has a TPM2.0 compatible mobo (if a hardware internal dongle is used) but the 6th-gen i5 will not be supported. The 170-series chipset on that motherboard won't support the required 8th-gen CPU, even though it's physically possible to fit one, so if I really wanted Windows 11 on that computer, I'd need either to do a mobo/CPU update, or take the risk of a manual Win 11 installation. Obviously, I wouldn't want to risk dropping below the required specs for a later version of Win 11, so I'd go for a 10th-gen CPU if I went for the hardware upgrade route. My other desktop, now 2 years old, is fully Win 11-compatible, so no issues there.

Of course, if you fall foul of the Win 11 specs, and you don't want to continue with Windows 10 once full support ceases in 2025, you could always convert that box to Linux and go for X-Plane 12 (or 13 by then)...!
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by Firebird »

Tim, you are correct with the fact that support can mean different things in different circumstances.

From what I have read, and MS have been mysteriously quiet on the Windows 11 support front, is that once 11 comes out the general support for 10 will run down. I have not seen any comms that have actually said in black and white that there will be no Windows 10 updates after xxx date.
What I have read indicates that MS will stop releasing any updates, including security updates, for any versions of their OS that is out of general support window. The general support window has been reduced to 18 months after the release of major update. Which as you quite rightly say means that Win 10 2004 is currently the oldest version currently in support but will drop out in Dec.

Now saying this there are some anomalies for example the support for 2009 will end in 2022, if you are using the Enterprise version. The Home version has already ceased. I went hunting and the best clearest website I found is this one https://endoflife.date/windows which is useful as it details the end of 'Active' support, which seems to mean they will provide general updates and fixes for that version and 'Security' support which means that massively important updates that need to be applied to protect your machine .

I have also read that MS is genuinely frustrated at people not upgrading to what they consider to be more secure versions of the OS, i.e. the latest version and patches. For a company that seems to be making strides to reducing their support costs and liability it doesn't seem to fit that they will provide support and updates for 10 and 11 until mid decade. I know what is published and therefore is currently true, I just can't see it staying that way. It seems contrary to what they are actually doing.
Again I point to the lack of transparency over what hardware you actually need to run 11.
I remember that the early reports of 11 indicated that it would released at the time that 10 22H1 would be scheduled but it has been brought forward. I am not in the dev channel so I do not know that there will be Win 10 22H1 or not. I haven't seen whether there will be or that there won't be.

On Windows 11 being run on incompatible hardware you are correct that you can install it. However, quite a few reports have stated that this can only be done by downloading a Windows 11 iso and no updates will be available through the Windows Update mechanism. Apparently that method also includes a disclaimer that you have to agree to that says that you understand that are are installing on an incompatible system and it is at your own risk and unsupported. So if you want to update your version you will have to download a newer iso.

MS are going to great lengths to set a line in the sand with 11 and have done so without spelling out the full hardware implications. I come back to the fact that their actions don't make sense to provide 'active' support for Windows 10 Home versions for so long. If I had to hazard a guess then they have a tipping point in mind. Once the monthly percentage of users using 11 reaches a certain criteria then they will announce a shortened support window. It seems to me that the easiest way to do this is to announce that there will be no more Semi-Annual Win 10 updates after xxx version. It will therefore be 18 months after that release.

There is still much of a fog over future intentions. It gives me cause to think.

Do I know what MS is planning to do - No.
Do I have a theory on why they have stipulated that all new laptops MUST have a webcam/spycam to be compatible - Yes.

It sounds like you have a similar motherboard to my current one and the same CPU. It is also obvious that you have done some checking and have a plan for the future. That is all I am trying to do. Make people aware, get them to check and formulate an idea of what to do about future needs.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by TimC340 »

Yes, you're right, it's a muddy picture! At the moment, my plan is to update to 11 on my main PC and laptop (both are fully compatible) in the initial conversion period, and keep my perfectly good second PC on Windows 10 until I have to upgrade it, at which point it's likely to become my primary box. I also have an old Dell XPS13 (by old I mean about 2008!) which just about runs Win10, so it'll be interesting to see how long I can keep that going before I'm forced to dump it or convert it to Linux.

I get the feeling that Microsoft are trying to go the same way as Apple, with hard end-of-life dates for hardware to be able to run the latest OS. That's going to be difficult to enforce with such a diverse manufacturing base, but I can see the advantages for MS. I know my 2015 MacBook Pro will lose OS updates from 2023 - though security updates will continue for many years after that. There's no 'will it or won't it' about it; once the date is reached, the computer will not get OS updates any more. Anyone with an older iPhone (or pretty much any Android phone over a couple of years old) will have experienced the out-of-support limit. It doesn't stop the device working. In fact it makes no difference whatsoever to its utility, but it won't enjoy any of the advantages of a newer OS. I don't have a problem with that.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by Firebird »

I agree with what you say. Each individual needs to be aware of the situation and plan according to their needs, desires and means.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by TimC340 »

Well, it's available from today. It's free for the moment. For my two compatible PCs I'll wait until they're notified for upgrade, but for the old desktop I may well have a go at a manual upgrade this weekend. If it doesn't work, nothing lost and I'll take it back to Win10.
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Re: Windows 11 (very early)

Post by hgschnell »

I was surprized that my desktop pc (built 2017) is not compatible for Win 11.
CPU I5-7500 and no TMP 2.0!
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