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Thoughts on the next project

Previews, discussions and support for projects by John Young.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by John Young »

Is this not essentially a civil helicopter asdro? If you can produce a list of military operators and current serial numbers, I'll give it further thought.

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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by asdro »

Do you mean the MD902 helicopter?

I can try to find more informations.

What I red is that the US coast Guard has phased out the MH 90.

I have to admit that most customers us them for civil reasons.
For example many police forces like in Germany, Belgium, Hungary, US ect use the MD902.


I will try to find more infos and will reply.



The H160 doesnt have many operators yet, but the French Airforce is the biggest customer as I wrote.
I dont know if there is another military customer listed somewhere.

I forgot the link of the article with all customers, but there are more than 80 ordered just by French military and Gendarmerie.

This Helicopter has a unique Rotor design and Airbus is optimistic for getting many orders in the future.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by Greg »

If i may jump in on the sim versions discussion, I am convinced that the fact that we produce for FS9 and still consider that as our default sim is why we're seeing low download numbers in general but relatively high download numbers for FS9 in particular.

"FS9 is still very much alive"? Of course it is. WE are keeping it alive. AIG has abandoned FS9 a while ago and focussed all their effort on P3D and now MSFS. On the civil AI side, FS9 is truly dead and you don't see the annoying "can we have it for FS9" posts on the AIG forums any more. People realised it was time to move on if they wanted to keep getting the latest stuff. Kai and Johan from AIG have already indidcated that the influx of new users since they released OCI for MSFS is simply massive. That's where our potential is.

We currently have around 1000 forum members who at least logged in in the last 6 months. In our glory days, that number was close to 10000. We're just not reaching enough people anymore because we've been in limbo for a decade now. With the right business model, the number of FSX/P3D downloads could have been 10 times higher.

TLDR; the relatively high FS9 download numbers vs FSX/P3D in the hangar are not represantive for the true potential of FSX/P3D/MSFS.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by gsnde »

About FS9 - the download numbers of the conversion packs are also speaking a clear language. I was checking several times because I just could not believe the total of 246196 was correct. For example the Dassault Mirage III 6197 times. That is high for an not exactly current aircraft.

From time to time I announce the conversion packs on other side, which always gets some applause. And it is obviously not the MAIW forum members who are generating these high download numbers. So I guess that when we remind people of the conversion packs they come over to our "FS9 place" to get them and then leave again.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by Firebird »

asdro,
I will address some of your points here because I think that you are not seeing the situation correctly.
I say these things as a staunch FS9er, as you well know.

FS9 IS dead, as IS FSX. This is because they are no longer developed nor supported by the label that released them. You may not like it but it is the case.
You say that many users will stay with the platform. I disagree. Many stay, like myself, because of no clear alternative to go to - at this moment. It will change though. Either P3D, As Tim believes, or MSFS, as I believe, will be the pre-eminent choice. Once it is clear and there is a movement of AI for that platform - people will move.
Change is inevitable - adapt or die.

MSFS is not finished. It is still missing a lot of functions but even when it gains then it will not be finished. It is a different model to early MS sims. It will constantly evolve and change. There will not be a new version every two years.

In 2003 I got FS9 for £39 which was well above average for PC software at the time. However, 18 years later you can't argue that it hasn't been value for money - just about £2 per year.
As for MSFS, I got The Premium Deluxe version for £77 - legitimately. I got the key from a US based software company and put the key into Microsoft Store and downloaded it.
If you look at this way The cost has doubled in 18 years but I think that you will be hard pressed to find any items, of a matching nature, that have only doubled in price in 18 years.

As for spending 20-30 Euros a week. if you don't want to - then don't. I don't think that I have purchased anything for FS9 in over 15 years. I have not purchased anything on MSFS yet. I don't intend to. I haven't bought anything for my Android systems since the OS came out. People will always try to sell you stuff but it doesn't mean that you have to buy it.

You express disappointment in MSFS. that is your right. However, MSFS, with all of it's faults, was a better product on release than FS9 is - and it has improved since.
You mentioned specifically light enhancements that you have to pay for. This is incorrect. You can pay for light enhancements, you can also download freeware light enhancements. This is absolutely no different to FS9. Therefore the point can be disregarded.

Finally, your comments seem to indicate that besides FS9 you have both X-Plane and MSFS. In which case you undermine your own opinion that people will stick with FS9.

I will state here that I would expect that there will be no more FS9 addons produced by Christmas next year - by anybody. The possible exception being ones that you produce yourself.
What do I base this on? Well a simple observation is that JY has stated that he will be terminating FS9 activities. JY has been a staunch and prolific producer over many years.

If you think that saying in posts that there will be an FS9 market in a years time will make it happen then I think that you are in for a rough year ahead. I have this vision of a Venn diagram with King Canute and yourself.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by TimC340 »

It would be a shame to see MAIW become simply a repository for FS9-era sceneries and aircraft and conversions thereof for FSX/P3D. The incredible work done by John and others needs to be seen in the best possible environment - as shown by the recent screenshots of his Typhoons in MSFS. MSPG's Valley, Ian's Coningsby and Lakenheath, and Manschy's Bruggen and Gutersloh show what can be done*, and what we should be aspiring to. It's telling that, those sceneries aside, our best offerings are probably the originally-FS9 ACG collection. I'm doing my best to gain the skills necessary to develop scenery which exploits the capabilities of P3D. I have a long way to go to reach the abilities of those guys, but it would perhaps be a bit easier if the focus of MAIW was explicitly P3Dv5 (and eventually MSFS), with all the previous sims provided for by legacy libraries which allow the recidivist enthusiasts of FS9 and FSX to access historical content without those sims dominating the site. Which I feel they do at the moment.

It would be great to see a military-AI-focussed site which echoed the contemporaneous emphasis of FSDeveloper. It's not just about providing the content, but about developing and encouraging the skills to create that content. To a large extent, I don't feel we've moved on a whole lot since the days of UKMil.

As always, it's down to the efforts of a few to provide for the appetites of the many, and it will always be up to those few what they choose to do and whether they indulge any particular segment of the audience. For my own, very small, part, I will not waste time developing for FS9, and less and less for FSX.
firebird wrote:If you think that saying in posts that there will be an FS9 market in a years time will make it happen then I think that you are in for a rough year ahead. I have this vision of a Venn diagram with King Canute and yourself.
Love it, Steve!

*Forgot Matt and Paul's Brize Norton - another great project, and P3D-only.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by asdro »

I want to give a short feedback about the MD-900 Helicopter.


Currently, according to wikipedia, only Mexico Navy operates military MD-902 Explorer-

Here are the serialnumbers:


900/00058 MP-031: Mexican Navy, ex N92380, reser AMHP-13?

900/00063 MP-032: Mexican Navy, ex N92104, reser AMHP-134, red/white livery

900/00066 MP-033: Mexican Navy, ex N3266H, reser AMHP-130

900/00067 MP-034: Mexican Navy, ex N3267X, reser AMHP-131, red/white livery

900/00069 MP-035: Mexican Navy, ex N70431, reser AMHP-13?

900/00070 2000 MP-036: Mexican Navy, ex N7068V, reser AMHP-13?




They use six according to Mexico Navy wikipedia page.
I found two diffenrent liveries, but couldn`t figure out which one is used or if both are in use.
They use red/white. And they also use a light grey livery.


The US Coast Guard phased out their MH-90 Enforcer, years ago.
Today most helicopters are used by Police or Rescue organisations.
Also there are a few which are private operators.

In 2019, MD Helicopters, presented its latest combat helicopter, the MD-969 Combat Explorer, but I couldn`t find any list about operators or orders.

https://gallery.vtol.org/image/Glxt0
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by John Young »

I think you have managed to research your own answer asdro. There's not enough meat in a military MD-902. I'm not going to get involved with a civil offering.

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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by John Young »

I've reached a decision on my design path.

I have to conclude that FS9 is dead, at least as far as MAIW and my interest is concerned. Only 4 users have come to the defence of the version. The average number of FS9 downloads for my last 10 projects is far too low to sustain the amount of work involved. To continue would just prolong the inevitable.

FSX numbers are a little better, but there is a more important aspect for that native code, in that it is also compatible with P3D. More importantly, it is the path for me to produce models that can be converted from that source to MSFS code. There is no Gmax Game pack for P3D or MSFS, so unless I learn the Blender process, FSX is my favoured route to experiment with MSFS AI modelling, at least while there is still some uncertainty about what the developing AI engine will eventually offer.

I've produced around 80-100 AI aircraft types for FS9 users, depending on how "type" is defined, but it's time to stop. I will continue to produce FSX/P3D models, but I want to move forward now and create the space to be able to work with MSFS now that we know a lot more on how to model for that sim than we did a year ago. I just can't model for 5 sim versions - the weakest has to go.

The Prowlers and Intruders will be the last FS9 packages from me I'm afraid.

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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by bismarck »

John Young wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 07:53 ... Only 4 users have come to the defence of the version.
5!!! we are 5!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I Don't think this is enough to change your decision. :roll:

I know, I know... it is something that would have happened sooner or later, and rightly so.
Thanks a lot for all your fantastic models.
Sooner or (most probably) later, I'll move on to a new simulator.

Giorgio
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by asdro »

John, I have tears in my eyes.

Is there a chance to make a compromise?

For example:

Lets say you want to develop a helicopter.

Lets say the helicopter has 8 models, including one civil model.

Would it be acceptable if you would make just two models then?

One militay and one civil model for FS9, and the other sims get full cover of all models (7 models + 1 civil).

That would save time for making six models for FS9.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by msm8378 »

John...A huge thank you for all of your contributions to FS9, and by extension thanks to everyone here at MAIW. It has been a fantastic ride with you all.

FS9 is the end of the road for me due to my age and time constraints for migrating to yet another version of the sim. I have been an avid supporter/user of MSFS since the very first version many years ago, but time does indeed march on so I fully support everyone's efforts to individually "call the ball" and move on.

Merry Christmas to everyone, I will continue to check in periodically to see how the future develops for MAIW going forward...

Mat
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by John Young »

Asdro, you have no idea what's involved in making separate FS9 and FSX/P3D models and paints. As for the civilian suggestion, I have learned from experience that if I go down that route, it just generates more and more requests for part variations. That's a "No" on all counts I'm afraid.

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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by TheFoufure »

John Young wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 07:53 I've reached a decision on my design path.

I have to conclude that FS9 is dead, at least as far as MAIW and my interest is concerned. Only 4 users have come to the defence of the version. The average number of FS9 downloads for my last 10 projects is far too low to sustain the amount of work involved. To continue would just prolong the inevitable.

FSX numbers are a little better, but there is a more important aspect for that native code, in that it is also compatible with P3D. More importantly, it is the path for me to produce models that can be converted from that source to MSFS code. There is no Gmax Game pack for P3D or MSFS, so unless I learn the Blender process, FSX is my favoured route to experiment with MSFS AI modelling, at least while there is still some uncertainty about what the developing AI engine will eventually offer.

I've produced around 80-100 AI aircraft types for FS9 users, depending on how "type" is defined, but it's time to stop. I will continue to produce FSX/P3D models, but I want to move forward now and create the space to be able to work with MSFS now that we know a lot more on how to model for that sim than we did a year ago. I just can't model for 5 sim versions - the weakest has to go.

The Prowlers and Intruders will be the last FS9 packages from me I'm afraid.

John
Thank you John for all these beautiful models, and also thank you for taking the time to listen to us and respond to our requests (sometimes demanding, like the Agusta 109 ;-)). I am probably one of the last FS9 users (among the 4-5s you mention). Probably because I manage to master a little its structure of scenes and I find everything I like in the virtual world. I tried to switch to FSX when it was released, but I never got hooked. I don't have a machine powerful enough to continue with P3D or MSFS, and I'm also maybe a little afraid of having to learn everything all over again to make them work (I've been with FS9 since its inception, I find it so intuitive). I will always remain an admirer, but from afar, of your future productions. I fully understand your choice to stop production of models for FS9 given the amount of work and the time that this requires.
Once again I want to say thank you.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by Fokket50 »

We all knew this day would be coming. I am also still using FS9, I tried FSX, never liked it, have MSFS but actually only use it for flying, ( it is a sim after all).

It is almost 2022, and still we have people creating stuff for FS9, that is actually amazing, I am thank full for all the people that created content or FS9, and for myself I am not finished with FS9 yet either.

Especially John has been fantastic the last years with all the models he created, but with FS9 FSX P3d and MSFS we knew he, and others, could not continue with making models for all the sims. I am happy the prowler and intruder will be finished for FS9 as I was really missing them in my setup.

John again thank you for your work, and somewhere I hope you wil, in some time,surprise us with a comeback to FS9, but I know that that will not happen. Just hoping MSFS will get the AI sorted out quickly and we can all continue the good work on that platform.

And a last word for asdro, it is a hard work to create models, a lot of time goes into it, but it gives me satisfaction when I see the result of my work. You should give it a try, and make models by yourself. Asking constantly for things, like now the MD-900, is not helping your case. If you need help creating packages, people here are happy to give you advise. You can start with the tutorials on this website.

And there will always be others trying to fill the gaps in FS9, like with my latest project:
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(sorry for the hijack :wink: )
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by TimC340 »

I have to say I don't understand the premise that P3D requires a whole new learning curve as a user. Frankly, that's rubbish! Its folder structure is exactly the same as FS9 and FSX, and, at almost every level, the settings and controls are so similar as to be indistinguishable. The UI is different, but not so much that an FS9 user wouldn't feel at home within a few minutes. The main area of progress in P3D is graphics, but just as with FS9, the quality (and thus the load on the computer) is fully adjustable - and the lowest quality on P3D is rather better than the best on FS9. There's a legitimate issue about shading, but that can be dealt with. But the PBR textures, dynamic lighting, and HDR graphics can be absolutely stunning. And you really don't need that high a spec of computer to run it.

However, I accept that there are those who can't afford to move on from the Windows XP box they've been using for 18 years. For them, FS9 is not going away. No-one is going to withdraw your access to it or the content that has been provided by John and other over many years. And if you really can't move on, you can learn to create content for the community who are equally restricted - there's plenty of info here and elsewhere as to how to do that (as Menno has admirably just shown).

But then there are those who simply refuse to move on from some point of high dudgeon. You see this behaviour in many areas of life - the 'it was good enough for my father; it's good enough for me' approach. It's a perfectly valid choice, but it's not one that should be a significant influence on others. And I feel it has perhaps prevented MAIW from moving on for rather too long.

Matrix was a valiant (and much appreciated) attempt to bring MAIW's content to P3D users with the maximum convenience and ease. I think the decision to make it only reflective of the current scene was both too prescriptive and required too much curation; it should be left to the user to decide what airfields, units and aircraft are represented on their system. But it's moot now. It's time for a conversation as to how MAIW moves forward.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by Firebird »

Fokket50 wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 13:58 And there will always be others trying to fill the gaps in FS9, like with my latest project:
Image
(sorry for the hijack :wink: )

Gotta love the A-3.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by TheFoufure »

Several model writers / creators / wizards here have decided to stop production for FS9.

I can fully understand their point of view.

But last night I thought of something. I don't know how it works with GMAX, but with FSDS I know it is possible (since it is with MSWG models of F-16).
Why not make a library with the source files here on MAIW, and whoever wants to compile it for FS9, or for FSX, or whatever, can do it.
Certainly, once completed, the models should be shared here, and all work reverts to the source author.
I can of course understand a certain fear on the part of modelers that their work will be hijacked by unscrupulous people.
These sources could be available in a paid part of the MAIW site (which would also contribute to the maintenance of the MAIW site).
Of course, this idea is just an idea that came to me at night. It must certainly be improved if it is possible to achieve.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by Firebird »

The issue, as I found out with the F-16s, is that a major difference is the animations.
When Kev decided to concentrate on FSX/P3D versions I offered to compile for FS9. Kev didn't keep what the FS9 animation tags were so it would mean creating them from scratch plus you need to convert the xml from FSX to FS9.

So whilst it is a worthy idea, I can't see that the benefit will be realised. You essentially need a modeller, or someone who learns a specific part of the modelling process, to complete the work.

If it were as simple as just compiling them for FS9 then I would do it myself, as I have FSDS for this very purpose.
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Re: Thoughts on the next project

Post by asdro »

I could live without animations like moving pilots heads.
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