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MSFS 2020

All things Military AI that don't fit anywhere else.
TheSilverSurfer
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MSFS 2020

Post by TheSilverSurfer »

Hello. I am a newbie on the site so pardon me if the question is dummy...
I can't find any package or file to download in th file library for MSFS 2020.

Is this site limited to FSn and P3D ?
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Firebird
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by Firebird »

Hi there.
It is certainly not a dumb question. The answer is yes and no.

At the moment there is no MSFS packs. This is not because we are ignoring it or even want to ignore it. It is simply that not all the pieces are yet available from Asobo to enable us to produce them. Until they get the AI engine sorted and finished it will unfortunately remain that way.

However, I can report that behind the scenes some developers are at this moment starting to investigate the process so that we can hit the ground running - once all the pieces are available.
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by barticus300 »

Any news or progress on getting some military Ai into MSFS2020 yet guys ?
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TimC340
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by TimC340 »

Frankly, you may be best asking that question of Asobo and Microsoft!

There are a number of issues with AI in MSFS which Asobo have acknowledged. On their Feedback Snapshot, it shows that resolving the issues has 'started', but there's no more detail.

Some MAIW users have managed to convert a few FSX aircraft to appear in MSFS, but I believe that getting them to work as AI in the way we understand it in FSX/P3D has not yet been achieved in a repeatable and reliable way - and the experiences seem to have varied widely. Kai over at AI Group has been co-opted on to the group advising Asobo on how to improve the AI implementation, and I think we all hope that some results from that aren't too far away.

In the meantime, I believe there is work going on within the community to streamline the aircraft conversion process from FSX to MSFS, and there are now a fair few UK military airfields on flightsim.to, so I would hope that an official MAIW MSFS 'department' is on the horizon!
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John Young
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by John Young »

I did at the weekend, manage to get one of my Tornado's to appear in MSFS and to fly an IFR circuit and land. That followed some detailed tutoring from Pete to understand the conversion process. Each version of the simulator made it harder to design AI aircraft. FS9 was relatively straight forward, while FSX introduced animation tagging to make designing much more time consuming. MSFS re-jigs everything and is probably 10 times more complex and time consuming to produce a workable AI aircraft, if indeed that is possible at this stage, given the deficiencies that Microsoft/Asobo have acknowledged.

Although the Tornado flew the circuit, half the animation didn't work. The FDE was so slow, the speed triggers, eg for the swing wings were not reached. None of the braking devices, like the spoilers, thrust reversers and Horizontal Stabiliser deflection on landing worked either. It's really a case now of changing the FDE and exploring xml code that MSFS will accept that can be used to trigger the animations that are not working.

The problem here is the test time. If I need to change anything in the Gmax model, I have to go through the conversion process again. That, with a bit of practice, might take an hour because it has to be done carefully. Loading the sim to the test flight takes 5 minutes and a circuit to view the braking devices takes another 25 minutes, including the taxi time.

There is no traffic view window in MSFS, so observation depends on practice with an Xbox controller to follow the aircraft with the Drone Camera around the circuit. That can only be done at normal speed at the moment - I can't speed up the AI aircraft to get it around the circuit faster, not can I slow to 1/4 speed so that I can view the animation in slow motion, like the gear retraction. It's quite easy to lose the aircraft completely and have to start the flight again.

So each test can take 90 minutes compared to about 10 minutes in the other sim versions. Those versions allowed me to make changes and test at will. Now, I can only do 3 or 4 tests a day, involving a change to the model source.

It will help enormously, once we know for sure what xml code works for the various animations in MSFS. Until then, there's a lot more work involved in trying to figure it all out. I haven't even mentioned PBR texturing.

I'll keep at it, because I like the new sim very much and it would be great to have AI working as we know it. That's until my sanity calls a halt and the fun drops out of the task.

John
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TimC340
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by TimC340 »

I suspect that what little information exists in the SDK refers to models made in 3DsMax, and I think that's currently the only officially-supported creative 3D program - and it costs a fortune. However, there is a conversion plug-in available for Blender (2.8 and later) which I understand works well (available at FSDeveloper) and also a preset for the free program Armour Paint for PBR material creation. (here). Of course, that means learning Blender, and you know how I feel about that, John!

None of that helps with the testing, however.
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John Young
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by John Young »

The cheapest 3DsMax option costs £5610 for a 3 year licence. That's out of the question. I don't want to learn Blender either and then still have to rely on a conversion program to model for MSFS. That method might preclude me continuing to provide models for FSX and P3D users unless I use sim specific conversion after that. The best all round option for me is to continue to make FSX native models to serve all 3 sim versions and to try and get the MSFS conversion from the FSX native models, working well.

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TimC340
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by TimC340 »

To be a little clearer, the conversion plug-in to allow Blender to create for MSFS "features a customized glTF 2.0 exporter, batch export for multi-LOD scenes, and support for all 15 materials of the sim platform." In other words, I believe it produces output that is just as valid as any from 3dsMax. There is also a similar plug-in to allow export in FSX/P3D-compatible formats. That doesn't alter the fact that Blender is a nightmare to learn, but it should be possible to use it to create FSX models which can then also be exported in an MSFS-compatible form. However, that's my understanding, not a statement of personal experience. There is, of course, much discussion over at FSD for those who are interested in taking it further.

Yes, 3dsMax is out of the question for the majority of us!
TheSilverSurfer
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by TheSilverSurfer »

Hello. Any updated intel ?
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John Young
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by John Young »

Not as far as building from scratch with Blender is concerned, but certainly by converting from FSX native AI models.

One of the reasons for me discontinuing FS9 models was to free time to be spent on learning conversion to MSFS - a lot of time indeed as it's turned out.

We are indebted to Pete (PB68) who piloted the conversion process and has tried to teach some of us the techniques, also taking a lot of his limited time. It's a tortuous route that has a few booby traps - the inability to save after the first stage of MCX conversion and come back to it (the second stage has to be completed in one go), and an SDK that changes from time to time.

This is my Tornado GR1 conversion, fully functioning as AI, including afterburner and PBR textures, with a lot of input from Pete:

Image

What I am doing now is trying the whole process myself, with Pete's guidance, so that I can do it again and again, hopefully. I've learned a lot about PBR texturing and can apply it to my part-converted F-35A model. It's a bit dark in tone at the moment:

Image

I think I might have corrected that, but as a further example of how frustrating MSFS can be, I've spent about 4 hours now, trying to get the aircraft to display again in MSFS, without success. I'm going to have another go this afternoon.

Now that I know it can be done, I want to stick with it, but it's eating up time that I can't spend doing other FSX and P3D stuff at the moment. All part and parcel of trying to move forward I guess.

John
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by aujeffk »

This is exciting to see. One of the things I miss most about P3D/FSX are the military AI and how easy the packages worked. It’s just not the same without it. Thanks for everyone’s hard work behind the scenes! Many of us will be very thankful when we see them in MSFS.
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by Christopher Low »

This is one of many reasons why I am still using P3Dv4.5HF2. There is plenty to be impressed by in MSFS with respect to the graphics, but there are numerous (minor, but significant to me) "issues" that are holding me back. To be fair, I do not really have the spare cash to be buying a new simulator and addons at the moment, so I want to enjoy my "complete" P3Dv4 simulation environment as long as I can!
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by Firebird »

I can understand what you mean. Once you start going down the road of buying add-ons, for any sim version, it makes it harder to transition in the future due to the idea of the cost involved.

I am trying to think of an add-on that I bought for FS9, AFX is the only one I can think of. Does this mean that my FS9 was not as good as it could be? Yes. However, I consider the £30 I paid for FS9 to have been excellent value for money, especially when you spread that over 20 years.
Even taking that into account it took me a long time to start to transition away from FS9.

With MSFS you get one version that is constantly updated, not a new one that you have to buy every two years. I also found a site in the US that sold keys for the Premium Deluxe version at under £80, £40 less than the MS Store price.

Once again, I have made a conscious decision not to buy add-ons. When you get some aircraft being sold for £50 it is ridiculous to consider going down that route. There is a thriving freeware market for scenery and aircraft at Flightsim.to as well.
There are two producers that have already produced copious amounts of Mil subjects on their own. 'Tag21' has produced over 20 quality add-ons for the UK, Switzerland and Australia, whllst 'nickb007', who I am convinced is Nick Black due to the subjects chosen, has produced nearly 10. So far.

To me it makes sense to go into it with the intention of spending nothing unless you really, really have to. Let it breathe.

To me the hardest reason for going to MSFS at this moment is what John was alluding to. Cutting aircraft across is not a simple thing. We tried the simple method of avoiding getting involved in PBR textures but it was obvious at first glance that the Tornado test subject looked lacking.

In essence, you have to follow a procedure to cut over the model(s), you have to get to grips with PBR textures, the animations are a bit hit and miss at this moment in time. A lot of this is because of the standards demanded by the new game, a lot of it is because they haven't actually finished and released the full SDK yet, so you don't actually know the way to achieve what you want. We are still relying on people like Pete who have gotten to the point that they have by trial and error.
There has been no emphasis on AI aircraft or even cutting aircraft over.

I would not try to persuade people away from P3D. This is a matter for personal choice. What I would say is don't be put off dipping a toe into the MSFS water by cost alone. You can easily limit cost, I have been doing that for 20 years.
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Greg
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by Greg »

Firebird wrote: 04 Jun 2022, 06:59 (...) whllst 'nickb007', who I am convinced is Nick Black due to the subjects chosen, (...)
I thought the same when I saw the nickname, but the email address linked to his PayPal donate button learns that his name is Nick Brawn.
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Firebird
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by Firebird »

Well that is a great coincidence then. I admit to having thoughts but wasn't intrigued enough to investigate further.
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by aujeffk »

Hey guys! Has Asobo done anything else on at AI front to help the process? Is there anything that MAIW fans like me can do to help (email, post, make a donation, etc.?). I really miss MAIW with going to MSFS 2020! It’s just not the same.

Appreciate what you guys do!
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Firebird
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by Firebird »

Things were progressing slowly but surely and the early pioneers here were gaining knowledge and confidence.

Then SU11 hit. Whilst it may well have been welcome by all for the improvements it did break AI. Now technically speaking, it may not have broken their own rules because they have not, as of yet, announced that the AI system is cast in stone.
There in lies the issue. The early birds here spent an awful lot of time trying to learn the system and how it can be applied and thereby gaining confidence in the system.
At the moment, and this is not an official statement of fact - more of a feeling amongst people here that we involved - that there is little point continuing and training others up if it is still in a state of flux.

It makes perfect sense to me. From a support point of view if we released packages and then they didn't work as expected we are the ones that get the calls to fix it not Asobo.

My sense is that at the moment people are waiting to see if SU12, out in mid March, fixes what was broken before or whether there are more changes. In an ideal world the finalised system would at least be announced then.
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John Young
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by John Young »

For my part, I spent over a thousand hours learning how to convert some of my AI aircraft to work in MSFS, only for Asobo to break the engine with SU11 just as I was packaging the first offering for upload. I'm not sure at the moment if I will want to get back into that again, should Asobo fix the problem. I wouldn't have a lot of confidence that AI wouldn't get broken again.

It's hard to create a good first impression, the second time around.

John
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by aujeffk »

Steve/John,

Sorry to hear that about SU11. That has to be frustrating to make and see progress only to have the rug pulled out from underneath you.

Hope SU12makes it easier for you guys. Again, appreciate not only your time, but your diligence to your craft. Stay strong and keep up the great work.
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Re: MSFS 2020

Post by TimC340 »

FSLTL is a freeware AI traffic program that is working under SU11. I'm not sure about how the technology works, but it does at least appear to work! Just Flight have released a payware traffic program FS Traffic which has been reviewed working under SU11 but I can't get it to work on my system. The Alpha India Group also offer freeware traffic injection and models for MSFS, but I have seen a few references to issues under SU11 though I've no personal knowledge of what they are.

It does appear that momentum is building in providing AI for MSFS and many minds are working the problems. Hopefully this will result in methodology that MAIW can exploit to get reliable military AI into the sim.
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