Windows 7 problems

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Firebird
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by Firebird »

I personally have no problems with it. It's main thing is about security, which hopefully nobody will really have to worry about. They are systematically moving through the various settings to try and make all aspects of it look and feel the same.

There are some pleasant aspects being brought in. There is now a Linux subsystem installed so as long as you activate virtual machines so you can run linux software on it. The next big thing, which is in testing at the moment is running an Android subsystem so that you can run Android software on Windows.

I personally have not yet found any software that ran on 7/10 that doesn't run on 11. It goes without saying that the older the software the more likely it is to have problems.

The ability to take advantage of M.2 drives, including booting from them, is going to be a big thing especially with the newer PCIe bus motherboards. Very fast.

The next big thing is Direct Storage. Under this, if you have Win 11, DX12, and the software runs on either an SSD or an M.2 then the latest graphics cards will access data directly on the SSD/M.2 rather than have the CPU load it and pass it across to the card.
It goes without saying that the software has to be set up to take advantage of it.

I know that you are being forced to change but it could very well be the best time to have happened. A couple of years ago and you could well have been on hardware that couldn't take advantage of things like this.

In the case of MSFS - DX12, DLSS and Direct Storage are all slated to be introduced bringing a massive increase in performance. DX12 and DLSS in a couple of months.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by TimC340 »

VulcanDriver wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 18:57 Is windows 11 any good. I've heard a lot of different opinions about.
It's a bloody sight better than Win7! It's not a great deal better than Win10 in most respects, but security is better - though that needs some hardware integration, which won't be an issue if you're building a PC from scratch.

I have to say I don't get this enthusiasm for outdated versions of Windows. It's very rarely Microsoft has screwed up the experience (Vista is the notable exception), and even unpopular editions (like Win8) were an improvement on their predecessors in several respects.

It's a bit like preferring a 1963 Cortina to a 2022 Focus. You get to feel cool, but you are worse off in almost every criteria that counts. But I could say the same about FS9... 8)
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Re: Windows 7 problems

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The older that people get the less inlined they are to embrace changes. It is human nature.
My gut feeling about OS updates is that this is a big part of this. Youngsters want the latest version and they want it now. Older people are comfortable with what they have now and don't want to learn something new.

The key thing to remember is that MS, or whoever, does not want to spend time and money supporting older versions of an OS. It doesn't make financial sense. I think that, currently, only 2 or 3 versions of 10 are still in support.

Software now is being produced to take advantage of 11's features. Software companies don't want to support older versions of OS either. People can't legitimately complain about software/OS incompatibility if they are not running the latest versions of both.

I realise and acknowledge that a large percentage of our members are happy with what they currently have. I am not trying to say that they are wrong, merely putting forward what the software producers are looking at.

Looking at it this way, 20 years ago people were going out and buying new hardware to either get the best out of FS9 or to run FSX. The business hasn't changed. People just get less flexible as they get gain wisdom and experience over time.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

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I must still be a youngster at 66 then Steve! I’ll take that!
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by Firebird »

... or an IT professional.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by VulcanDriver »

Hi Steve my SSDs are M.2 next question is what graphics will I need. Mine is about 5 years old. Oh and CPU I'm looking at Intel Core i9-12900K
John

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Re: Windows 7 problems

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Looking at graphics options I shall keep MSFS in mind here. Basically if your hardware will work for that then it will work for anything you have.

OK in reality you need a GPU that can do ray-tracing and is DLSS capable. When MSFS is made fully DX12 capable then ray-tracing will be used. Realistically we are talking Nvidia 20 or 30 series here. The 20 series has capabilities but its abilities are surpassed by the 30 series, as this will be passed by the 40 series whenever that comes out.
So the minimum here is the RTX2060/70/80 if you get a ti version of those cards it will be better than the standard version but cost-wise it may not be worth it so compare the prices of the version you eventually decide on.
Personally, I think that going for the 30 series would make more sense, RTX3060/70/80/90. One its newer and it will have more cores. To give you an example an RTX3060ti is equivalent to an RTX2080.
if a card is said to be DX12 Ultimate compatible then it means that it can use Direct Access, IF the software allows it and IF you are using SSD/M.2 storage.

At the moment it can be a struggle to get graphics cards without paying through the nose for. To give you an idea The Nvidia FE (Founders Edition) RTX3060 is priced at £369 on their website. In the last month I have seen the odd one or two of that exact edition going for between £960-£1030 on Amazon!
The FE boards are ones that Nvidia make themselves. Third party ones are normally tweaked up a little bit and cost a little more. You can get some deals. This week there was an Asus branded RTX3060 going for £292 on Scan.

Myself I was lucky enough to get an Nvidia RTX3080 FE for £649 RRP last year.

Now on CPU I did quite a bit of research for mine. The key thing is really the generation. So the i9-12900K is the 12th generation. i would get the newest gen that your motherboard can take. The i9-12900K is a reference refers to the speed of the cores. It is not the actual speed just denotes the next highest increment of that gen. the 900 is the highest speed core of that gen.
As with anything you pay more for more capability. Have a look at the relative speeds of each gen and their prices to see which gives you your best sweet spot of bang for buck.
Now the i9-12900K refers to the number of cores that the processor has in general if you subtract 1 from the i number then that is the number of cores but it is not hard and fast. For example the 10th gen i9 has 10 cores but later gens have 8 cores plus threads.
Now the key thing here is not to overpay for what you need. If you are not using any software that doesn't take advantage of 8 cores then unless you are hard multi-tasking you can get a lesser core chip and be better off financially.
To give you an idea MSFS does not use a large number of cores. I read somewhere that it uses between 2-4.

So when i bought mine, I decided to go for the 15-11400K, there was no 12th gen at the time. Very little in clock speed between the 400,500 and 600 and i got the 400K for £180 as opposed to the £260 for a 600K. The i5 has 6 cores.
So that was my bang for buck decision.

What I layout here is my decision making and what I discovered going through the process. You are of course completely free to adjust to the criteria that currently exists. i hope it helps.

One last thing I should mention for GPUs.
DLSS is mentioned a lot as a big thing and it is. What essentially it does is upscale the video output to your monitor of any game that uses it and and GPU that is compatible with it. It is mentioned as giving you a massive boost in fps.
There is a caveat here. From what i understand the GPU outputs at 1080p and DLSS upscales it to your monitor capability with next to no performance cost.
When you read this the thing that will strike you is that if you have a 1080p monitor then you will get little or no benefit at all. This I believe to be the case. If you have a 2k or 4k monitor then you will get 2k/4k resolution-LIKE quality for 1080p performance.
You may not benefit now but you will when you a higher spec monitor in the future.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by VulcanDriver »

Hi Steve
Are these prices good value?

Inno3D GEFORCE RTX 3060 TWIN X2 OC £368
Intel Core i9-12900K, 8C+8c/24T, 3.20-5.20GHz £557
John

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Re: Windows 7 problems

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If you use the nvidia 3060 FE as a guide, then yes that is a good price for a 3060.
As for the i9 it may not be a bad price for that CPU. The only question you should have is whether you can get better value for money by getting an 15 or i7. It is one of those questions I can't in all conscience answer.

The chip itself is good, the question is whether you will use its capabilities. I get that you may not buy another motherboard for 15 years so you might use its capabilities in time. Me personally, I would not go for that CPU, but I change motherboards on average every 5 years. So you should go with your feeling and/or strategy.

I try not to spend other peoples money. I will be quite happy to relate my experiences and offer my opinions, but the sort of money we are talking about it must be you that is happy to spend a sum - not me.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by VulcanDriver »

Intel Core i5-12600K 12th Generation Desktop Processor (Base Clock: 3.7GHz Tuboboost: 4.9GHz, 6 cores £262

Maybe better for FlightSimming and occasional spreadsheet and word processing.
John

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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by John Young »

Steve, I'm following this with interest, not that I'm thinking of changing my PC at the moment. Would you be inclined to over-clock the i9-12900K from the 3.20Ghz. My FS9 didn't like over-clocking on my previous PC, FSX, P3D and MSFS are working fine for me with an un-clocked i7 9700K. Any advice on cooling?

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Re: Windows 7 problems

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I could not argue with you there. That is the sort of thing I was talking about. It is weighing up your needs against costs involved.
If you were to go with that chip you could either save yourself £300 outright or potentially get extra memory, more internal storage or external backup storage.

Each person will have different needs/criteria. It comes down to what you feel comfortable with. My guess is that once you layout on a spreadsheet exactly what you want to buy and how much it will all cost you will either be happy with it or want to tweak the list.
A spreadsheet is by far the best way to keep control of your costs if you are building your own machine. Providing that you include absolutely everything involved.

Although it is not directly relevant to this project the next Nvidia 40 series really ramp up the power requirement so you have to take into account a new power supply into the equation. As you know a new motherboard will mean new ram.
Check the requirements of each component and spreadsheet all the cost. Incidentals, like fans, cables, coolers can really add up.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

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Hi John

That's the FS set up I'm planning. FS9 onwards with P3D so I'll be interested in what Steve says..
John

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Re: Windows 7 problems

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John,
The clock of each cpu should really only be compared to ones of the same generation. This is because the instruction set and efficiency will change with each generation. An 11th gen cpu running at 3.9Ghz will not be the same as a 12th gen cpu running at the same speed.

What I do is start with the motherboard. This will narrow what cpus and what memory you need. At the moment there is a critical jump in PC technology. Probably the biggest thing to look for is the PCIe bus and the gen of each PCIe slot.
What I found was that each gen of PCIe slot doubles the through-speed of data transfer.
This should give you an idea of what I am talking about :-
Bus Year Transfer
PCIe 4.0 2017 16 GT/s
PCIe 5.0 2019 32 GT/s
PCIe 6.0 2021 64 GT/s

Now each PCIe bus is completely backward compatible but this does not mean that an M.2 drive that is PCIe 4 will run twice as fast in a PCIe5 motherboard. Either item can throttle it. So if you put a gen 4 M.2 in a gen 6 motherboard you will actually have less transfer speed than a gen 5 M.2 in a gen 5 board.

Now there is nothing wrong with putting your gen 4 drive in a gen 6 board. It will work perfectly fine and it means that if in a few years you buy a gen 5 or gen 6 drive then you will instantly get 2x or 4x the throughput without changing anything else.
It just illustrates the point about start with the board.

Now on the subject of overclocking this was a big thing and could even be said to be a major industry 10 years ago. Times have changed. Mainly due to the increased efficiencies of the bus systems and the capabilities of the latest cpus that have multiple cores. You don't need to push the limits. If you overclock you increase the power requirements of the cpu, you increase the heat of the cpu which means you need more cooling. in consequence you also shorten the lifespan, which more or may not be important.
The last time I overclocked anything was about 15 years ago. I much prefer the stability over getting a 4.2Ghz chip to go to 4.4Ghz. If you really need a 4.4Ghz chip, and the chances are that you don't, then buy one.
The other thing to take into account is that every chip is automatic overclocking built in. In the case of the I9 - Base Clock: 3.7GHz Tuboboost: 4.9GHz - this means that by activating the setting in the motherboard bios your chip will automatically go up to 4.9Ghz when it needs to. The same thing applies here. More speed equals more power and more heat.

Now on cooling. Whereas 15 years ago you had to spend a fortune on cooling you do not need to now. The reason is that the manufacturers have made the cpu components smaller. You now fit multiple cores on a piece of silicon smaller than the days of the Pentium. The smaller number of microns that the chip builds use means they need less power, less power means less heat which needs less cooling. It also means PCs are quieter.

It used to be that you had to junk the intel cpu cooler that comes with the chip without thinking, to get a better quality one. Now not so much. you can get away with the default one depending upon your build.
Now the best cooling is for the foreseeable future going to water cooling but that adds expense. So if we leave that for now the best thing to do is start with a case with a clear air path through it. We have all had PCs that have been absolutely jam-packed inside.
You can actually avoid that now. Whereas each traditional HD and SSD used to take up a slot and require various cables to block the way you can now plug M.2 drives directly into the motherboard. No cables required, so no cutting down airflow. You also remove the actual drives from the slots which again increase airflow. Most cases now have a fan at the back and you can have a fan or two in front of the drive bays. It is quite easy to suck air in front and back and blow it out the top, as heat rises anyway.
Then if you do get a quality CPU cooler you should no issues there.

The one thing I would also advise is that M.2 drives are basically chips and they can get hot especially at the greater transfer speeds so i would advise getting passive cooling covers. They are basically thin aluminium that transfer the heat from the chip to the greater surface area of the metal to lower the temp of the M.2 drives.

I hope this helps here but again I will answer any questions I can.

It used to be the case that
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by Firebird »

A quick note about the nextgen Nv 40 series cards. The reason they require far more power is purely so that they can transfer data faster to take advantage of the newer gen PCIe bus.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by VulcanDriver »

Hi Steve one final question is about RAM. I'm thinking of 32Gb DDR . What's your thoughts on this please.
John

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Re: Windows 7 problems

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I deliberately left RAM out of the equation. Not because it it is a tricky question but rather it seems as though it one purely of choice.

My system I planned to get 32GB but then with looking at the cost of the system with all the little incidentals, like leads, cables etc. I decided to go with 16GB to start with as there was no concrete testimonial on whether you needed to have 32GB or not if you ran MSFS.
My own experience is that I have not needed it. This doesn't mean to say that you shouldn't get 32GB just that it seems that you can do without it.

If you want 32GB - go for it. If you think that 16GB will do at the moment - go for it.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by TimC340 »

Not relevant to most of our sims, but one of my guilty pleasures is Cities Skylines. It's a few years old now, and perhaps not as efficient as newer games, but with any addons it just won't work with 16Gb RAM. MSFS uses a fair bit, and it's not going to get less as it bloats. I'm already thinking of going to 64Gb on my main games computer later this year...
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by Firebird »

Wow, that is a serious RAM hog if you are thinking of going to that.

I did hear stories about MSFS and its RAM requirements and I was prepared, and still am, to go to 32GB. For me at the moment it has not been an issue even once. Like Tim says that doesn't mean that it won't be in the future.
One thing that could be a factor is the RAM on your GPU.

On my RTX3080 there is 10GB, and according to Task Manager it can utilize up to 8GB of shared memory as well, i.e. PC RAM. So it could be that the GPU RAM is the reason that I have had no issue. Something to bear in mind.
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Re: Windows 7 problems

Post by VulcanDriver »

Thanks Steve I'll go for 16Gb with spare slots in case I need more.
John

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