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Author Topic: How to Activate Non-Parallel Runways  (Read 33846 times)
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jvile
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« on: July 09, 2004, 03:43:37 pm »

I spend most of my time developing XML ILS approachs for new runways that real world airports add.

Just recently I have noticed post where the star concept is being used without success for activating non-parallel or crosswind runways.

I am listing the technique that I use to activate certain non-parallel or crosswind runways when developing my Active ILS Series of Airports.

There are plenty of post on how to create a workable star but the problem is that aircraft will use this star when visiblity is greater then 3 miles and planes land where they are not suppose to (on the grass).

Follow these steps:

1. The star degree offset between any 2 runways that you pair together cannot be greater then 7.9 degrees. Always add 7.9 degrees or less to the True heading in runway property's. Mag heading will update and change automactically.

2. The new visual runways MUST BE a minimum of 10 X 10 ft and closed on both ends (4 ticks) for T/O and Landing. Place the new runways anywhere on the airport property until all have been added.

3. After the star is finished use the list dropdown menu in AFCAD2 and look at all the runways. The new visual runways must be placed (drag) between 2 of the default FS9 runways. When you complete this step you must now re-name all the runway link lines (black) to the original runway numbers.

Now most of you have already tried all of this and the runways still did not work. So continue

4. Slew the user aircraft in any direction at a high altitude away from the airport up to 108 NM. Use a VOR/DME (if available) to see how far away you have slewed the plane. Try and place the user aircraft at a position that does not get a lot of arrival AI Traffic.

5. Note the crosshair of your User Aircraft on the Grid of the AFCAD screen.

6. Now drag all of the star visual runways you created to the crosshair symbol using the rubberband method or the shift select keys.

7. Using AFCAD2 make sure all active runways at the current airport are open on both ends and listen to ATIS which will check and tell you the fake runways exsist if everything was done correctly.

Are you starting to see what you have now accomplished?

By placing the visual runways 100 miles from the airport all the AI Traffic arrivals will find an active runway at the airport and not a visual fictious runway 100 miles away. Based on direction and LAT/LONG of each active runway, ATC approach will vector arrivals accordingly to your new paired or additional crosswind runway based on winds.


Hope this helps
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John Glossop
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2004, 01:38:06 am »

Wonder if you'd mind posting a sample (small zip file) of how you do it here, so that the rest of us can have a look?
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jvile
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2004, 01:56:48 am »

John:

I will work up KCLT (USAir's home airport) which has parallel north/south runways and one ENE 5/23 runway and attach within 24 hrs. as an example.
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cvgee
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2004, 03:14:44 am »

Jvile!

 
You're great, I tested this method at Barcelona El Prat (LEBL) and it works great!
 
No more grass landings, I assumed they would be still there, but not visible in the airport area, because the 'star' runways are 50+ miles out, but I checked the spot where I placed them for over an hour, no landings there at all!! All planes go to the real runways at the airport itself!
 
One more thing however, planes also approach a runway that is closed for landing at both ends, I guess this has to do with the XML-stuff??
 
Keep up the good work, now it really gonna looks like real!
 
CVG
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xavios
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2004, 05:09:14 am »

Well, I think the first 1/2/3 steps are the most important ones and if you get AIs on the good runways I cannot  understand why the following steps?
Am I wrong thinking steps 4/5 /6 are useful only to move  AIs that still would like to use  false runway(s) to land out of sight?
When you ask to:
Quote
Now using AFCAD2 make sure all active runways at the current airport are open on both ends.

 I think you mean for landing? because if you open runways also for take-off it might happens problems for them.

Waiting to see your example anyway.
Bon courage
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jvile
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2004, 01:15:05 pm »

Xavios:

"Am I wrong thinking steps 4/5 /6 are useful only to move AIs that still would like to use false runway(s) to land out of sight?"

No planes will try and land at the visable runways because there is no approach procedure. A no written approach procedure can only occur within the border of the airport.

Steps 4/5/6 are needed so any plane assigned the visual runway (based on a direct heading) is now forced to arrive at the airport on a written approach for a defaut FS9 runway.

Yes, I do mean to open all runways. This is the whole purpose of activating every runway at a given airport. A AI plane cannot taxi to a runway that does not have a taxi (black) line connected to a parking spot that is 50 miles away. This again forces all departures to seek a active FS9 default runway.

Trafficlook is the tool I use to monitor arrivals and departure because it shows when the AI plane is assigned a runway both on the ground and in the air. It also shows a plane that was using a visable runway and then what approach procedure ATC gives the plane after the visable runways are moved 50 miles away.

Hope this helps
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jvile
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2004, 01:24:42 pm »

Cvgee:

It does nothing to close a default FS9 runway on both ends for arrival. This has to do with the direction and vsual zone the landing plane comes from.

Any AI plane that is within a 8 degree arc (direct line from departure airport) of a closed runway will continue to use that runway.

The closing of a runway on both ends for departure is more of a hard code for FS9 then arrivals.
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FKHUL
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2004, 04:47:13 pm »

jvile,
 
This method has worked amazingly well at both KORD and KLGA for me. Finally someone has figured out how to perfect the non-parallel runway problem. You're my savior! I can finally fly into and out of KORD without having 2 runways active, or without seeing every other plane land in the grass. Thank you so much!
 
Jeremy
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flabba
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2004, 07:10:46 pm »

hey i have seen where u work wonders with the miami went spotting there and go arounds were very minimal. i am eager to try your method but like fs 9 i have limitations that needs to be tweaked. if u could be kind enough as to explain what is the star concept and how to use it to bcreate runways

thanks much
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jvile
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2004, 08:14:26 pm »

As per John Glossop I am attaching to this post an example AFCAD2 of KCLT for the crosswind technique that I use on the Active ILS Series of airports. I picked this airport out of many that I am working on for more ATC intelligence.

This AFCAD file is an example ONLY! Do not upload to any web site. This AFCAD does not meet any PAI standard and gates are only added so USA has alot of parking spots. Taxiways have been tweaked somewhat for more fluid movement of AI Traffic. By design several nodes are disconnected if you run the fault finder. No exclusions or XML approachs have been applied.

This is a stock KCLT airport modified with AFCAD only.

Use this AFCAD to look at how the crosswind technique is applied and the operation of all runways opened both IMC and VMC (always give yourself a little runway wind).

You can locate the visual runways by turning on view NAVAIDS in AFCAD then finding the outer marker symbol 50 miles south of runway 36L (not 7 miles). You will have to zoom in when you get there because they are only 10 x 10 in size.

Experiment with it. Example, close runway 5/23 on both ends. Using Trafficlook or the MSN SDK toolkit observe how ATC approach changes the vector sequencing of arrival aircraft to other active runways.

If you move the visual runways back to the airport then AI Traffic from KTPA, KGSO, KRSW, KILM, KPIT, KCHO, KAHN, KROA etc will try and land on them.

Look closely how the visual runways are sandwiched between 2 FS9 default runways in the list runway dropdown menu. This is very important for FS9 to recognize the paired runway (36L/18R to 5/23)

Make sure you have USA flightplans. Use a time that loads the runways excessively for departure and arrival. I use 17:30 GMT for testing purposes. Be careful if you increase time to 4x's. Remove or rename your current af2_KCLT and replace with this one in your AFCAD scenery folder temporarily.
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Marty Henare
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2004, 10:00:02 pm »

Damn you bet me to it, i was just about to suggest placing the star well away from the airfield.
Now the next trick is to have ATIS ignore the star runways, and to make atc assign departing runways a bit more randomly.
I have YMML working really well, but Qantas and half of international terminal a/c use 09/27, while virgin,the other half of international and freight use 16/34.
But the landing side of things is very good and not much different from real life.

Excellent stuff mate
Thanks for sharing
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Low and fast through the mountain pass
jvile
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2004, 10:57:31 pm »

Marty:

It is odd to hear all the visual's announced by ATIS. If airport visibility is less then 3 miles then you only get departure announcements not arrivals.

I have been working on this but the ATC voice calls what is written  (runways) in the AP******.bgl or the AFCAD.bgl. I have rewritten upper layer XML's with no success. May have to go lower in the ATC airport layer to eliminate the ATIS calling visual runways.

I have not been able to decompile the airport border bgl (hex editing only) yet but it appears to be 25 - 30 miles from the center (pinky spot) of the airport.

If and when I do get into the border.bgl properly thats when frequency assignments can be enhanced for Center vs. Altitude also.

Runway assignment is done by the distance of the parking spot to the LAT/LONG of the closest runway. The LAT/LONG is the very center point (halfway) of the runway distance. Don't know if that hard coded data can ever be changed in FS9.
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SteveParkinson
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2004, 01:26:58 am »

Jim,
    Downloaded and ran your KCLT and I must say excellent job, you are the man! Traffic not only landed on all three runways but took off using all runways also. First time I used it was using actual weather (T-storms) and traffic used 36L &R and 5 for takeoff and landings. Next I changed weather too wind gusts out of the south and they used 18L & R and 23. I am impressed, this could be a major breakthrough on the non parallel runways. I am going to start working on KDFW and can hopefully get something working with that.

Right now: takeoffs 36R/18L and 35L/17R with 36L/18R and 35C/17C used occasionally.
               landings 36L/18R and 35R/17L

Would like to get DFW more realistic: Landings 36L/18R and 31R for the east side of airport.

35C/17C, 35R/17L and 13R for west side of airport.

Going to see what I can do with it tonight and tomorrow. Thanks for the download, that cleared things up alot.

Steve
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xavios
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2004, 03:50:42 am »

It is absolutely wonderful to see it working.
And you also have modified the runway crossing in a brilliant way like in the "removing hold short node" thread in a very discreet way...
Congratulations! it's a major improvement.
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SteveParkinson
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2004, 04:46:21 am »

Quote from: jvile


Runway assignment is done by the distance of the parking spot to the LAT/LONG of the closest runway. The LAT/LONG is the very center point (halfway) of the runway distance. Don't know if that hard coded data can ever be changed in FS9.


This is true I believe. Worked on the stars method you provided tonight Jim and no luck at KDFW.

Another problem I have is most of the terminals/parking are on the East side of the airport so I tried to force most of the American Eagle's to use 18L vs 17R to eliminate so much traffic waiting 17R/35L departure. I went as far as adding an overlapping taxiway over the existing one just for Eagleflight parking on the Eastside all the way to a node just before 18L. ATC still has them taxi to 17R, they will taxi up to 18L and then make a U-turn and backtrack to 17R.

Still working on the Stars with KDFW, do you have to add the black taxiway line on the dummy runways located 50 miles off the airport or just add the runways, disable them and you are done?

Steve
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