Russian/exUSSR military plans

drmweaver2 · Post by **drmweaver2** » 01 Nov 2006, 12:28

Fun stuff... For some reason, the Russian side has always had an attraction for me that is indescribable. I was born a few years too soon --- people who I was stationed with have been sent to the Ukraine on assignment since the fall of the Warsaw Pact, When I heard that, boy was I jealous!

;P

What are you using to make your scenery?

Post by **VulcanDriver** » 01 Nov 2006, 17:02

Hi

I'm using SceneGenX (the FS9 version of Airport), AFCAD, RWY12 and for the trees a program, which AFAIK has never been released to the public, called TreePlaneter.

I have made custom scenery using GMax which I may do for specific buildings, e.g. Engels only major building which is a 'H' shaped block.

I agree about the fascination with the Russian stuff, maybe its because it was so 'secret' for years?

John

drmweaver2 · Post by **drmweaver2** » 01 Nov 2006, 20:22

If I'm lucky, I'll be able to use/figure out RWY12... I tried for a bit to mess with FSDS and gmax and got less than nowhere... so, scenery is slightly outside my realm at this point. I'd very much liek to learn gmax but I'm pretty sure that the time investment/learning curve to "decent product" is more than I care for.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what you've come up with.. both at Engles and at Domna.

Post by **VulcanDriver** » 01 Nov 2006, 21:48

Hi

One thing is on my GMax list is a Soviet / Russian HAS. They are totally different to NATO versions. The ones at Domna are partly buried in the earth so they look like small hills.

Anyone know what Russian military control towers look like? I'm using an API macro which looks vaguely Soviet!

John

drmweaver2 · Post by **drmweaver2** » 02 Nov 2006, 01:55

Um.. a "HAS"? What's a "HAS"?

(I could just be brainfarting here.. but that's not even vaguely familiar as an abbreviation to me.)

GrahamS · Post by **GrahamS** » 02 Nov 2006, 02:42

HAS = Hardened Aircraft Shelter

drmweaver2 · Post by **drmweaver2** » 02 Nov 2006, 02:50

DUH... That was the sound of my head imploding from the massive size of my brain fart.

Thanks.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 02 Nov 2006, 20:28

Mayhap it is a Hardened Aircraft Shelter (HAS) but that is just a Wild-Assed Guess (WAG).

GrahamS · Post by **GrahamS** » 02 Nov 2006, 21:36

No, it isn't a wild guess of any description! But maybe the USAF doesn't use them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardened_Aircraft_Shelter

Perhaps though, you've never been to Lakenheath, as an example!

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 02 Nov 2006, 22:48

LOL- You're talking to a SAC guy Graham. SAC had some Shelters for FB-111s that were an arch roof structure, but not hardened. Likewise there were hangars but those were for weather-not withstanding an attack. I think most of the 'hardened' shelters related to fighter types. I wonder if the ones Saddam had in Iraq were patterned after some Soviet type? In VN we had mostly revetments- but there were some for F-4s that were arches made with corrugated iron and then covered in concrete. There were also concrete arches with dirt overburden and blast doors in various places in Europe. Never got to do any duty there. Just some visits to the Far East.

Post by **VulcanDriver** » 02 Nov 2006, 22:53

From what I can tell the Soviet /Russian ones are buried under soil with very thick blast doors. I assume that under the soil there is bomb-proof shelters. From the Google Earth photos they look stronger than the RAF / NATO ones.

GrahamS · Post by **GrahamS** » 02 Nov 2006, 22:55

Yes, I know who I'm talking to, but the fact that you didn't serve with many UK guys is quite obvious - Your comment would be considered offensive here by most, something we all have to be careful of in an international forum.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 02 Nov 2006, 23:12

GrahamS wrote:Yes, I know who I'm talking to, but the fact that you didn't serve with many UK guys is quite obvious - Your comment would be considered offensive here by most, something we all have to be careful of in an international forum.

Sorry you took it to be offensive. If anything, I thought I was displaying my own ignorance at what it might mean. My reference to an old SAC guy was also saying I really don't know about them-Hence "WAG." What was offensive about my lack of knowledge?? I was truely guessing at the meaning.

GrahamS · Post by **GrahamS** » 02 Nov 2006, 23:22

That just goes to show how difficult is this medium at times - I took it that you were suggesting that it was a guess by myself - Incident over, I appologise if any offense was caused.

drmweaver2 · Post by **drmweaver2** » 03 Nov 2006, 02:19

From what I can tell, they DO use hardened shelters which are both open-aired and coverred - and those usually with dirt.

I can't find any pics of the doors at all.

The open-air shelters are no different than any on the "non-Warsaw Pact side" - meaning, a 3-sided rectangle above ground or a 6- sided box with the "front" and the "top" sides open.

----

On a different note, does anyone know how to make a runway textured to look like it is composed of large white blocks(concrete verying in shades from almost white to medium light gray)??? I'm fairly certain that this nearly "universal" look to Russian runways is due to a concern with temperatue expansion and contraction extremes resulting in surface cracks. You can see what I have so poorly described by looking at pretty much any of the non-major non-civilian airfields not around Moscow or St. Petersberg.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 03 Nov 2006, 03:58

GrahamS wrote:That just goes to show how difficult is this medium at times - I took it that you were suggesting that it was a guess by myself - Incident over, I appologise if any offense was caused.

No Offense taken, you are right! It is hard to communicate sometimes on this thing called the net.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 03 Nov 2006, 04:04

It is really hard to find any definitive stuff. Tried several search combinations without a lot of luck. Just 15 years ago it would have been much easier to browse a list and look at images. Unfortunately none of that would be releasable. Here are some things I found related to the topic with a few strays.

http://www.russianairfields.com/index.htm I think this one was mentioned before. Good resource, maps, diagrams, lists and ID by type.

http://www.spantech.com.au/defence.htm One company building hardened shelters

http://www.americansheltertechnologies. ... istory.asp Arch type used in Viet Nam.

http://www.bunkertours.co.uk/raf_alconbury.htm Alconbury-lots of details of hardened structures.

http://www.defence-structures.com/hardened-hangars.htm Acft Shelter with Diagram(UK)

http://www.aircraft-hangars.com/militar ... angars.htm Various Aircraft Hangars

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/tallil/tallil_tabe.htm Photos of damage to hardened aircraft shelters at Tallil Air Base.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/tallil/index.html Index to report

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... y/iraq.htm Comprehensive overview of Iraq facilities- maps, photos, descriptions of operations. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... rforce.htm Similar to the Iraq sources- covers DPRK

http://www.f4phantoms.co.uk/home.html Title says PhantomsF4 UK but this site has a lot of other photos, Airbase info, etc.

****Note I did not find anything on Soviet Shelters or Control Towers.

Post by **VulcanDriver** » 12 Nov 2006, 16:16

OK here are two screenshots of Domna AB in Siberia. It is a major MiG-29 base (presumably as its close to China!). The HAS are not correct for Russian use but they do for the moment. I don't know where I found the AI MiG-29 from, but its in the old Russian AF scheme. One day when we have a MAIW version I hope it will be in the current scheme.

John

Post by **VulcanDriver** » 12 Nov 2006, 16:18

Here's the second one.

drmweaver2 · Post by **drmweaver2** » 12 Nov 2006, 18:58

It's coming along.

One of the interesting, yet possibly confusing for some, issues when doing order of battle work on Russian aviation is that there are parallel but separate aviation forces AND where there were three parallels chains of command, now there are two.

The equivalent of USAF now combines what were formerly "Soviet" Long Range (Nuclear) Bomber Forces and Air Defense forces. Interestingly, the Air Defense Forces used to control the TU-22s as these were not considered "strategic" forces due to range limitations (obviously arguable, but political considerations [SALT talks] entered the argument at some point). What was formerly Soviet Naval Aviation Forces remain separate for the most part.

However, with the reorganizations and reduction in forces over the past decade, simulating "real" flight plans for long range/bomber-type forces is going to require some "willful suspension of disbelief" for those of us who used to be intimately familiar with "Soviet/Warsaw Pact era" aviation numbers and operating schedules. For instance, having begun semi-serious experimentation with TU-16, TU-22 and TU-95 flightplanning, I find that it is likely that I will be sending some NAF-aircraft to AF bases just to have somewhere to go - mostly because the bases they used to go to are either abandoned or of questionable operational status. The reverse may be done (AF to NAF bases) in limited numbers to simulate forward deployments and exercises, but there are more AF bases than NAF bases thereby alleviating some of the necessity.

So, the status of flightplanning/the personal side of this project at this point is this.
1. AOOB/OOB essentially completed
2. Afcad'ing missing or incomplete bases begun
---Concentrating on the Far Eastern Military District first
--------------think Vladivostok, Kamchatka, etc.
------Preliminary afcads completed for the bomber/recce bases
----------Google locations identified and used as references
3. Have identified all AI/non-AI aircraft models I will use until AI models become available for the entire Russian Air Forces
---No AI bombers exist
---Only 3 AI fighters exist (one archaic, one modern, one I forget right now)
---A mixture of AI and non-AI transport aircraft exist
-------some have appropriate liveries/paints
---Still looking for an IL-38 ---- a derivative of an IL-18
------If anyone knows of one, especially in the correct livery, please let me know... AI or not, I really need this model (consider the effect of substituting a non-boom-tail P-3(if there is such a thing) for the real thing... just doesn't look right)
---Will have to substitute TU-95 for TU-142 and TU-22M for its recce variants realizing most people won't "see"/recognize any difference.
----On the Alphasim forums the comment was made by one of their guys that no AI Russian bombers would be forthcoming even as payware though one individual Alphasim modeller (jokingly?) offered to make one "privately for a price". So, the field for AI Russian bomber/recce models is left entirely to MAIW and the llike - both a good thing and a reall-sucky one if you know what I mean.
4. Have identified locations of real-world operational areas including
-------bombing ranges
-------recce areas (border, SoJ, Arctic, Aluetian, North Sea)
-------plotted out simulated tracks to represent these operations
5. "Real" flightplaning begun
------after some "just for fun" practice plans were done (ex., strikes on Shemya/Adak)
------have begun creation of "waypoints" for routing to fill the holes left by the dearth of MS-provided ones internal to Russia or surrounding Russian national borders.
---------These waypoints are absolutely necessary to do things like fly around the Chinese border rather than across it, to set up patrol and recce areas, and to simulate turn-around" destinations for exciter-flights.

All things considered, progress... slow but steady.