Multiple Formation Flight Models

fishlips · Post by **fishlips** » 01 Dec 2008, 03:48

I recently reveiwed THE "RED ARROWS" Package for FS2002-2004 - DISPLAY 4 GMAX - REDPACK7.ZIP by Mark "Dark Moment" Beaumont, model by Kari Virtanen and of course not forgetting Nick Blacks F14 4 ships. Why is it these wonderful multiple models are not expanded to include a variety of models like the F16, F15, A4 and a range of low poly props like the PC3. As we all know, making formation flight plans is very difficult and often FS does its own thing anyway and spoils the effect.

This is a screen shot of the Kari Virtanen hawk in RAAF colours in just one of the animated positions that this very low poly model offers.

Each aircraft has a different tail marking but uses the same fusilage texture. I for one would love to have more of these models in my FS World and my screen shots on various FS sites have lead to many questions about the models.

I thought I'd bring it up as there is great interest in these types of models that simply arn't available for most aircraft models.

I for one would assist any developer who would like to share there source files in putting together more of these visually engrossing models.
Just give a PM and I'll be there.

fishlips · Post by **fishlips** » 01 Dec 2008, 03:50

One more screen shot, they really are very interesting to watch.

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 01 Dec 2008, 04:04

This comment/argument is solely meant as a point of discussion.

"Locked in" 4-ship formations appear, at least at first glance, to be relatively limited in terms of use. Other than demonstration flights, what good is a "locked in" formation?

It's not something that you would normally see in real life, is it? I mean, I can almost see a "locked in pair" being useful - that is, I've seen pairs takeoff and even a very few landing. But can someone convince me that such a formation is realistic from taxiing thru takeoff thru landing and thru taxiing yet again? I mean, they'd even be parking as a locked pair, right? So, even a "locked pair model" seems at least slightly bogus - except for demonstration flights.

Please enlighten me if you guys see other uses that escape me right now.

Post by **Firebird** » 01 Dec 2008, 07:32

@Ford
My personal opinion is that you are right, and at most the pair formation is likely to be the most common used for multiple aircraft formations. I am not convinced yet that welding a pair is the best idea. Not least because of their behaviour on the ground, taxying and parking, and this is where they would most often be visible.

@fishlips
Now to go back to the original question about 4-ships etc of various types. The simple explanation is that it needs the original modeler to make them. Nothing that MAIW can do about that.
Now whilst I know that its possible to create an airshow type display with multiple formations it would need the co-operation of the modeler to build them and somebody with considerable experience in flight planning to actually make it work.
People with this sort of skill level tend to go for accuracy in normal use rather than the ability to create cool looking still screen shots. It doesn't mean that packs like you want won't appear, but logic suggests that they are unlikely unless targeted for specific reasons.

fishlips · Post by **fishlips** » 01 Dec 2008, 11:18

These are really negative comments guys. I often hear Simmers refering to real life yet they sit in front of a simulator full of non-real scenery with aircraft with non-real response. Like come-on guy's, its a game that costs pennuts from the local game shop.

If we don't watch FS traffic, why do we go to the trouble of numbering each aircraft repaint. I have a welded set of F/A 18's and they are very cool to watch on take off and landing and I often spot them in flight, as with Nick Blacks F14's that I have set up around aircraft carriers.

All I am saying guys is that there is a place for them in FS. For example, you could have four single models take off and the return fly-by could be made by the welded model and the landing again made by the single model aircraft. Yes it still probally needs an afcad for the welded model to hide at but that wouldn't be the first time its done.

I live near an airbase and quite often I see aircraft doing formation flight, training for shows and events. It does happen in real life. I found Nick Blacks F14 -4 ship fly-by very interesting and are pleased to have given his model a number of repaints and flight plans and I trust many others have done the same.

It may not be great for Vatsim but it is interesting to see them to break up the every day flights.

Post by **BadPvtDan** » 01 Dec 2008, 12:22

If you don't like their responses, go buy yourself FSDS and get to work. It only costs..."peanuts".

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 01 Dec 2008, 13:37

There is a difference between being negative and voicing an opinion different than what was hoped for in response.

fishlips · Post by **fishlips** » 01 Dec 2008, 14:37

I have FSDS and I'm hard at work doing a new Super Hornet single and Rio seat, single and multi weld model. Just wanted to see if there was any interest here in it. It has 8 LOD's with a poly count of 2668 up close and personal. I guess the interest is low at MAIW. My appolagies for sounding discouraged by the feedback as I have spent a lot of time getting it perfect and easy to paint with just three texture files. (fuse, tails, pilots and tidbits). Not to worry, someone will want it I guess.

I also wanted to see if others were doing or thinking about doing a simlar multi-model project. As there are bugger all F111's about, that may be my next project as no one seems to have completed a good AI model yet.

I also have a range of semi-dismantled military aircraft for ground scenery that may be listed on avsim in the future.

SMOC · Post by **SMOC** » 01 Dec 2008, 15:15

As with all modelers: make what you want to make. "If you build it, they will come."

People on this site have created some nice fly-bys and other formation flying without use of a welded model that seems to appeal more to the masses than a model that won't really look good unless it's flying.

Jumpshot724 · Post by **Jumpshot724** » 01 Dec 2008, 15:17

I also have a range of semi-dismantled military aircraft for ground scenery that may be listed on avsim in the future.

PM sent

MACC · Post by **MACC** » 01 Dec 2008, 17:25

fishlips wrote:I have FSDS and I'm hard at work doing a new Super Hornet single and Rio seat, single and multi weld model. Just wanted to see if there was any interest here in it. It has 8 LOD's with a poly count of 2668 up close and personal. I guess the interest is low at MAIW. My appolagies for sounding discouraged by the feedback as I have spent a lot of time getting it perfect and easy to paint with just three texture files. (fuse, tails, pilots and tidbits). Not to worry, someone will want it I guess.

I also wanted to see if others were doing or thinking about doing a simlar multi-model project. As there are bugger all F111's about, that may be my next project as no one seems to have completed a good AI model yet.

I also have a range of semi-dismantled military aircraft for ground scenery that may be listed on avsim in the future.

Any screens of your f18?

Post by **BadPvtDan** » 01 Dec 2008, 18:30

Great to hear that you are working on what you like. No, there's probably not a huge call for multi-ship models around here. Don't let that stop you though. You will find in this hobby that when you create something...if half the people downloading it like it...you're doing good. The only one that really matters, however, is you.

Post by **Firebird** » 01 Dec 2008, 21:30

fishlips,
I am sorry that you thought that my comments were negative. My comments to Ford were purely about me agreeing with his personal viewpoint.
My comments to you were about the difficulties of achieving what you wanted. The two specifics being access to the raw models, and the time and difficulty in planning the use of some of what you wish for. I don't really regard that as negative more that it is one of realism.

I know the F-18 models that you talk about and I tried them, noticed the things that I found negative about them and removed them. If you like them fine.
You are right using single models for take offs for take off and landing and welded wings for the intermediate stage. It has been done and MAIW has used it in e.g. in the Miramar package. This is how I know the work that is involved in producing such events. To do a 4 ship fly-by was a lot of work for a flight planner.
To create a number of models for even a 12 aircraft squadron on one base, and their flight plans for a week, are possible but logistically are not likely to happen. This is what I was trying to explain.

As the great Eddie Izzard said "We could count to a billion! We would not, but we could!"

fishlips · Post by **fishlips** » 02 Dec 2008, 03:27

I think you're refering too Kari Virtanen's welded F/A 18 pair for FS2002. Not sure about your problems with flight plans for multi-models as explained. I have many similar flybys set up for OZ bases with little effort. Just a matter of using mathamatic's and a good a map, if that dosn't workout, make an invissible acfad. Much easier making flight plans for one welded ship, than trying to make them for four, six or more AC.

As for parking them, do it somehere out of sight and out of mind. The middle of the ocean or desert works fine and no added frame rates are impacted. How you weld the models is important if they are to land at your airbase. Touch and goes work very well in the effect department.

My AI Super Hornet will be finished soon. Just doing the textures now.

fishlips · Post by **fishlips** » 02 Dec 2008, 03:29

And Yes, Steve.
I was happy to help other developers in welding there models to save them the time and effort. There choice obvously. One big happy family isn't it where sharing is common place.

Post by **Firebird** » 02 Dec 2008, 09:00

fishlips wrote:And Yes, Steve.
I was happy to help other developers in welding there models to save them the time and effort. There choice obvously. One big happy family isn't it where sharing is common place.

Absolutely. We have always tried here to foster enthusiasm to get more people involved in AI work. Sometimes we have to make statements to dampen down expectations of what MAIW will produce and it is never intended to snuff out the spark of anyone's embryonic ideas.

rcrc · Post by **rcrc** » 17 Dec 2008, 18:04

fishlips wrote:I have FSDS and I'm hard at work doing a new Super Hornet single and Rio seat, single and multi weld model. Just wanted to see if there was any interest here in it. It has 8 LOD's with a poly count of 2668 up close and personal. I guess the interest is low at MAIW. My appolagies for sounding discouraged by the feedback as I have spent a lot of time getting it perfect and easy to paint with just three texture files. (fuse, tails, pilots and tidbits). Not to worry, someone will want it I guess.

I also wanted to see if others were doing or thinking about doing a simlar multi-model project. As there are bugger all F111's about, that may be my next project as no one seems to have completed a good AI model yet.

I also have a range of semi-dismantled military aircraft for ground scenery that may be listed on avsim in the future.

I'd like to see more pair's personally...I have one F-18 set with some pairs in it by Kari Virtanen. It is cool to break up the monotony of my skies, even though on the ground it doesn't look quite right. Bring it on!

I appreciate all the hard work that all of you put in FOR FREE at that.
I would like to learn how to do more to help, but honestly, how do you all find the time? My wife is always on my case about it as it is...lol

rcrc · Post by **rcrc** » 17 Dec 2008, 18:05

fishlips wrote:I have FSDS and I'm hard at work doing a new Super Hornet single and Rio seat, single and multi weld model. Just wanted to see if there was any interest here in it. It has 8 LOD's with a poly count of 2668 up close and personal. I guess the interest is low at MAIW. My appolagies for sounding discouraged by the feedback as I have spent a lot of time getting it perfect and easy to paint with just three texture files. (fuse, tails, pilots and tidbits). Not to worry, someone will want it I guess.

I also wanted to see if others were doing or thinking about doing a simlar multi-model project. As there are bugger all F111's about, that may be my next project as no one seems to have completed a good AI model yet.

I also have a range of semi-dismantled military aircraft for ground scenery that may be listed on avsim in the future.

I'd like to see more pair's personally...I have one F-18 set with some pairs in it by Kari Virtanen. It is cool to break up the monotony of my skies, even though on the ground it doesn't look quite right. Bring it on!

I appreciate all the hard work that all of you put in FOR FREE at that.
I would like to learn how to do more to help, but honestly, how do you all find the time? My wife is always on my case about it as it is...lol

rcrc · Post by **rcrc** » 17 Dec 2008, 18:05

fishlips wrote:I have FSDS and I'm hard at work doing a new Super Hornet single and Rio seat, single and multi weld model. Just wanted to see if there was any interest here in it. It has 8 LOD's with a poly count of 2668 up close and personal. I guess the interest is low at MAIW. My appolagies for sounding discouraged by the feedback as I have spent a lot of time getting it perfect and easy to paint with just three texture files. (fuse, tails, pilots and tidbits). Not to worry, someone will want it I guess.

I also wanted to see if others were doing or thinking about doing a simlar multi-model project. As there are bugger all F111's about, that may be my next project as no one seems to have completed a good AI model yet.

I also have a range of semi-dismantled military aircraft for ground scenery that may be listed on avsim in the future.

I'd like to see more pair's personally...I have one F-18 set with some pairs in it by Kari Virtanen. It is cool to break up the monotony of my skies, even though on the ground it doesn't look quite right. Bring it on!

I appreciate all the hard work that all of you put in FOR FREE at that.
I would like to learn how to do more to help, but honestly, how do you all find the time? My wife is always on my case about it as it is...lol