Military AI Works

mikewmac wrote:

Stewart Pearson wrote:

mikewmac wrote:Mike,

I have the beta version of the MPAI EE Lightning FDE about 95% done and will be sending it your way this week. I never realized the great performance these unique RAF birds had.

The $64,000 question Mike is...........................will you be able to reproduce the iconic Lightning take off as seen here?;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CDLbokf9sg

Would be stunning if it were possible.

Stew,

Steve's correct that the FS9 AI engine prevents the vertical climbout, but I did recreate the relatively short takeoff roll. At the moment I have set its takeoff roll to ~2300' since I figured that its high performance ~1630' takeoff roll was probably only used in emergency scramble situations like we did with the VT ANG's F-102A "Deuces" back in the day.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find much definitive performance data for the EE Lightning on the internet, so to some extent I have had to extrapolate from my own knowledge of the USAF's "Century Series: fighters from the same era.

If anyone has any performance information on the EE Lightning such as typical takeoff and landing rolls, the latter with and without a drag chute, as well as rotation, cruise, approach and landing speeds, I'd love to get a copy.

I emailed my MPAI EE Lightning Beta FDE to Mike P. yesterday, so things are moving right along on his latest AI model.

Mike M.

Mike
You CAN't compare the Lightning to an F102 . Like comparing a Ferrarri to a Lada . Sea level speed F3 mach 1.1 Initial rate of climb 50000 ft/minute servise ceiling 65000 ft. Speed at alt. mach 2.27 .One pilot's comments on flying the Lightning " I was with it all the way until I let the brakes off " Unfortunately my contact for info on the A/C died late January . I do remember one quote "Brakes off to liftoff about same as an F-16" . I'll always remember that comment . I DO, however, have all Lightning serial #'s and history's. BTW, from the 2A onwards the Lightning had a kinked leading edge on the wing . Only drawback= combat radius was a mere 600km.
. Another quote "Acceleration was impressive once brakes are released Take-off roll between 2,000 & 3,000 feet, depending upon MIL or MAX AB powered takeoff. Reaching 50 feet altitude in a distance of 1,630 feet, and a climb speed of 450kts in 61.8 seconds."
I'm waiting for an email from 2 ex pilots quoting more detailed figures .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oHUyr0 ... re=related

Mike,
I wish I still had my copy of the Lightning Pilot's notes. What I do remember is that due to the wing sweep it had a high landing speed. I seem to recall it having an approach speed of approx 180kts and a touchdown at 160kts.
I also remember that not using a chute wasn't an option at that speed. No chute equals overrun barrier. That was the instruction in '74 at Coningsby, we had the LTF there for a while. I don't know about the distance covered on landing but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same as for an F-104.

dont know if this will help Mike but here go's.
according to an article in air combat the frightning climbed out at between 25* and 35* pulling the nose up constantly
untill the nose gear was retracted under 240 knots above that the nose wheel stayed "hanging".
on landing despite the 16ft braking chute and wheel brake's the fright still needed a long landing role.(dont say how long).

Thanks Guys,

All of your your information is helpful in narrowing the takeoff and landing performance envelope within which I need to work for the "Lightning". If you find any more information, please don't hesitate to post it here or PM it to me. I probably won't be able to duplicate some of it, but I'll try to do the "Lightning" justice as one of the hottest fighters of its era.

@sr01... I wasn't trying to compare the takeoff performance of a "Lightning" to a "Deuce", just making the comment that our "Deuces" only made maximum performance takeoffs under real or simulated emergency scramble conditions and I am assuming that the same was true for the "Lightning". It sounds like my current guesstimated takeoff roll of ~2300' for the "Lightning" is in the correct range, so I will stay with that for the time being. Yes, the size and performance data that I have been able to find for the "Lightning" does match up pretty well to today's F-16, which is amazing given the era when the "Lightning" was developed and flown.

@Firebird....Unfortunately the FS9 AI engine will probably prevent me from creating the high approach and landing speeds that you quote. At the moment I have the "Lightning" on final at ~138 KIAS with a drag chute landing roll of ~3200'. I can lengthen the latter easily, but the former is probably close to as high as I can go without introducing a raft of other problems. As you and I both know from experience, AI FDE creation is a real balancing act and we can only do what that darn FS9 AI engine will allow.

Mike M.

My dad seems to remember coming into land in the lightning at Binbrook and it took over 3/4 of the runway to slow down to an appropriate taxi speed.

mikewmac wrote:Thanks Guys,

All of your your information is helpful in narrowing the takeoff and landing performance envelope within which I need to work for the "Lightning". If you find any more information, please don't hesitate to post it here or PM it to me. I probably won't be able to duplicate some of it, but I'll try to do the "Lightning" justice as one of the hottest fighters of its era.

@sr01... I wasn't trying to compare the takeoff performance of a "Lightning" to a "Deuce", just making the comment that our "Deuces" only made maximum performance takeoffs under real or simulated emergency scramble conditions and I am assuming that the same was true for the "Lightning". It sounds like my current guesstimated takeoff roll of ~2300' for the "Lightning" is in the correct range, so I will stay with that for the time being. Yes, the size and performance data that I have been able to find for the "Lightning" does match up pretty well to today's F-16, which is amazing given the era when the "Lightning" was developed and flown.

@Firebird....Unfortunately the FS9 AI engine will probably prevent me from creating the high approach and landing speeds that you quote. At the moment I have the "Lightning" on final at ~138 KIAS with a drag chute landing roll of ~3200'. I can lengthen the latter easily, but the former is probably close to as high as I can go without introducing a raft of other problems. As you and I both know from experience, AI FDE creation is a real balancing act and we can only do what that darn FS9 AI engine will allow.

Mike M.

Mike
Sounds good !!
Cheers
Brian

Superb work, this is what I wanted to fly when I left school. I was hoping the RAF would hang on to a few for local air defence, they sure get up to altitude quick.

That they could, Tim. In reality the best chance of hitting anything was to ram the target. You could only rely on the cannon.

Here is a screenshot of the first two nearly-completed models, the F.1 and the F.6. Interesting to note, the F.1 gun ports are painted on, and the F.6 gun ports are modeled in (ya gotta do what ya gotta do....). If you are a Frightening fan, you can figure out which is which pretty quick. I think all these need are wing ordnance and the ground stuff (covers, ladders, flags), and they will be good to go; then on to the trainer..

More as it comes, or these just may show up on AVSIM soon....


Mike P.

In my mind there is one synonym for The Lightning - "Orgasmic"

The F.6 I mentioned in the last post is actually an F.53, forgot to add the refuel boom; that is now fixed..... I have complete beta clean models for the F.1, F.2, F.53, and F.6.

True Story:

Picture the scene. Lightning sitting at the runway hold short. Phantom on finals for a touch and go. Phantom pilot does his overshoot right over the top of the Lightning - lights his burners and pulls vertical. Lightning pilot gets take off clearance, taxis into position and takes off (ala Lightning) pulls vertical and overtakes Phantom!!

Happened at Binbrook many years ago in the good old days.

Stewart Pearson wrote:True Story:

Picture the scene. Lightning sitting at the runway hold short. Phantom on finals for a touch and go. Phantom pilot does his overshoot right over the top of the Lightning - lights his burners and pulls vertical. Lightning pilot gets take off clearance, taxis into position and takes off (ala Lightning) pulls vertical and overtakes Phantom!!

Happened at Binbrook many years ago in the good old days.

Stew,

That sounds awesome. Maybe we should try to reproduce that scenario with an MPAI F-4 and Lightning. We can't duplicate the vertical climbs, but we could have a VFR MPAI F-4 sent around just as a VFR MPAI Lightning starts its takeoff roll.

Mike M.

Can all be simulated with FSRecorder......

MIKE JG wrote:Can all be simulated with FSRecorder......

Mike,

But that is cheating to an AI purist!

Mike M.

Superb work Mike.

Very nice sir......and note the included Red Tops and Firestreaks......

This had been put on hold (for a while now), it may have been of use to you.
The last 'true' interceptor.
The ONLY aircraft to catch Concorde in a tail chase (1985 I think).

To think the cancelled TSR-2 apparently pulled AWAY from a Lightning in tests!!!!

Weescotty wrote: The ONLY aircraft to catch Concorde in a tail chase (1985 I think).

You are right Kev, but only a single F.3 version managed it. We all joked at the time that he then immediately called a fuel priority emergency. I have no idea whether that was true or not.
Incidentally, F-15s were also allowed to intercept it but didn't complete the tail chase.

Weescotty wrote:This had been put on hold (for a while now), it may have been of use to you.

ooherr.jpg

The last 'true' interceptor.
The ONLY aircraft to catch Concorde in a tail chase (1985 I think).

To think the cancelled TSR-2 apparently pulled AWAY from a Lightning in tests!!!!

VERY nice modelling on this .You've captured the subtle lines of the canopy and nose very well !!!.Hard to do I know as I've sketched this A/C many times . IMHO I'd say take it our of the holding pattern and finish the model .
It also successfully intercepted a high flying U2 out of Lakenhearth ( summer of 1965 by several F3's of 111 Squadron)
Cheers