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MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP)—A Vermont Air National Guard pilot who took part in a flyover of Fenway Park during opening day ceremonies has been grounded for making an improper maneuver near the park, a Guard spokesman said Thursday.

The F-16 pilot flew under and over the other three F-16s in the formation at about 1,200 feet over Boston on Tuesday afternoon because he was going too fast and was late joining the formation, Guard spokesman Lt. Col. Lloyd Goodrow said.

“It is a legitimate maneuver. It is normally done at 5,000 feet or above,” Goodrow said. “The crowd loved it, but it was not a planned maneuver.”

Goodrow would not release the name of the pilot.

People at Fenway Park or watching the Boston Red Sox’s opening day ceremonies on television saw three planes flying wing tip to wing tip when the fourth plane approached from behind and then appeared to curve around the other aircraft.

Goodrow said it was not an acrobatic stunt.

“At no time was the public in danger,” Goodrow said. “Our pilot is a very skilled pilot. He maintained full control of the airplane.”

Red Sox spokesman John Blake said Thursday the team hadn’t heard any complaints about the maneuver.

“I think we were made aware of it today by the Green Mountain Boys,” Blake said Thursday. “Nobody here has had a lot of time to find out what happened.”

Goodrow said Guard officials saw the maneuver on television.

“We all said, ‘Wow, that’s not right.’ All the aviators knew what was going on,” Goodrow said. “They said, ‘That was a bit unusual.”’

The pilot was suspended after he landed back at the Burlington International Airport in South Burlington.

“The pilot has been grounded, not as a punishment but so we can provide remedial training in tactics and procedures so this situation does not happen again,” Goodrow said. “He might have made other choices to rejoin the formation.”

There was no word on how long the pilot would remain grounded.

Boys will be boys, Green Mountain Boys that is!

In the category of public displays of poor judgement and airmanship this ranks right up there with the time a couple of the early Green Mountain Boys supposedly flew their P-51D's under the Lake Champlain Bridge and the time back in my day when a friend of mine put a damper on his military career by being observed buzzing his family's Lake Dunmore camp at tree top level in an F-102A.

Mike

heres a video of it
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eGsHszYnYMI

That was really awesome.

Here's what Air Force Times had to say about it:

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/ ... x_041108w/

“He maintained full control of the airplane.”

He clearly didn't maintain full control, otherwise this .....

The F-16 pilot flew under and over the other three F-16s .... because he was going too fast and was late joining the formation.”

... wouldn't have happened. Ergo he is not

“... a very skilled pilot. ”

Which is why

"remedial training in tactics and procedures"

is needed.

But it is very small beer, a very minor mistake, I'm glad no disciplinary action is being taken.

Great.............say goodbye to stadium flyovers from now on, they're waaaay too dangerous (sarcasm intended).

It's a legit manuevor he just did it lower than protocol states. Above 5,000 fett it's a normal and encouraged move to make, he just did it at 1,100 feet which is obviously a no no. He did have full control. He didn't do anything wrong except be late which we don't know the reason and just did a manuevor lower than he should have.

But.. we all must agree it was a spectatular maneuver jajaja

CelticWarrior wrote:

“He maintained full control of the airplane.”

He clearly didn't maintain full control, otherwise this .....

The F-16 pilot flew under and over the other three F-16s .... because he was going too fast and was late joining the formation.”

... wouldn't have happened. Ergo he is not

“... a very skilled pilot. ”

Which is why

"remedial training in tactics and procedures"

is needed.

But it is very small beer, a very minor mistake, I'm glad no disciplinary action is being taken.

The point being made is that at no point in time was he not in control of the aircraft. Did he make a mistake; certainly. Does that make him not a skilled pilot? Absolutely not.

Guys, I stand by my comments. For those of you who don't know me, please don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a current military flying instructor and commander with 6,000 hrs and 22 yrs experience, I teach formation flying on a monthly basis and have taken part in more than a dozen public events . If he was one of mine, he'd be in front of me with his hat on and with not a hint of coffee in the air and I'd say the same things to his face. The main thing was that he was late, which makes him appear unprofessional and also makes him "not a skilled pilot", what he did afterwards compounds his error, what he should have done was abandon his part in the flypast. Skilled piloting is not just the actual physical handling of the aircraft, it is every aspect of flying, and that includes being at the right place at the right time. Flying an aircraft is a skill, being a military pilot takes more than that (this is beginning to sound like one of the little 'conversations I have to have with my students from time to time ).

While I won't dispute Celtic's comments, experience or perspective, I see it a different way.

The "at fault" pilot is the flight leader. He was responsible for setting the flyby up correctly - all planes on time, in proper formation and at speed - not the barrel-rolling latecomer. This particular fly by doesn't seem to have been anything special.

That's the guy I would have standing at attention in front of "The Man, not the pilot people are seeking to blame.

Responsibility does not flow downhill. Neither does accountability.

But that's just me.

here's a couple links to the vid so everyone can judge for themselves, also here a link to the current topic over at baseops.net(which is a site run by current a former military aviators, these guys do this for a living has shined a bit more light on what may have happened).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGsHszYnYMI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tDkCVmWov5U

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/in ... opic=13360

CelticWarrior wrote:Guys, I stand by my comments. For those of you who don't know me, please don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a current military flying instructor and commander with 6,000 hrs and 22 yrs experience, I teach formation flying on a monthly basis and have taken part in more than a dozen public events . If he was one of mine, he'd be in front of me with his hat on and with not a hint of coffee in the air and I'd say the same things to his face. The main thing was that he was late, which makes him appear unprofessional and also makes him "not a skilled pilot", what he did afterwards compounds his error, what he should have done was abandon his part in the flypast. Skilled piloting is not just the actual physical handling of the aircraft, it is every aspect of flying, and that includes being at the right place at the right time. Flying an aircraft is a skill, being a military pilot takes more than that (this is beginning to sound like one of the little 'conversations I have to have with my students from time to time ).

That's cool... you should stand by your comments if you feel you're correct. I stand by mine as well... a mistake doesn't make someone "not a skilled pilot." If you can tell me in 6000 hours you've never made a mistake while flying, in any capacity, you would be the first.

Something tells me though we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

CelticWarrior wrote:
Guys, I stand by my comments. For those of you who don't know me, please don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a current military flying instructor and commander with 6,000 hrs and 22 yrs experience, I teach formation flying on a monthly basis and have taken part in more than a dozen public events . If he was one of mine, he'd be in front of me with his hat on and with not a hint of coffee in the air and I'd say the same things to his face. The main thing was that he was late, which makes him appear unprofessional and also makes him "not a skilled pilot", what he did afterwards compounds his error, what he should have done was abandon his part in the flypast. Skilled piloting is not just the actual physical handling of the aircraft, it is every aspect of flying, and that includes being at the right place at the right time. Flying an aircraft is a skill, being a military pilot takes more than that (this is beginning to sound like one of the little 'conversations I have to have with my students from time to time ).


That's cool... you should stand by your comments if you feel you're correct. I stand by mine as well... a mistake doesn't make someone "not a skilled pilot." If you can tell me in 6000 hours you've never made a mistake while flying, in any capacity, you would be the first.

Something tells me though we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree. Everyone has an opinion and you're totally entitled to it. My biggest thing is we don't know WHY he was late. It could be any myriad of factors. And the fact that he's not facing disciplinary action leads me to think that it wasn't JUST his fault and there were other factors contributing to it. The VT ang is a fantastic unit, all great guys and gals. I've been there, I've talked to them, I've seen them at work. If I hadn't, then my opinion might of been different.

"While I may not agree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

The catalyst for why he was late, as I understand it, was a false start in the ceremony. They briefed inbound for a certain time, then someone at the game was speaking longer than anticipated which put the fighters into a holding pattern at a different location than expected. This resulted in an approach different than expected. I'm not defending the mistake just mentioning a factor at hand.

SMOC wrote:The catalyst for why he was late, as I understand it, was a false start in the ceremony. They briefed inbound for a certain time, then someone at the game was speaking longer than anticipated which put the fighters into a holding pattern at a different location than expected. This resulted in an approach different than expected. I'm not defending the mistake just mentioning a factor at hand.

Chris,

I think that is exactly what happened. I read that the Red Sox announcer asked everyone to stand for our national anthem and the Boston Pops Orchestra started a drum roll. This keyed the on site controller to initiate the formation flyby from a holding pattern about 8 miles out. Then the announcer interupted for a few more remarks, the drum roll stopped and the controller had the 4 F-16C's enter another holding pattern closer in. Now the time and distance for forming up again for the flyby was apparently mariginal. As I understand it #3 just barely was able for form up, but needless to say #4 didn't make it. Of course at this point he should have broken off and there would have been a 3-ship formation flyby with none of the current fall out.

I also read that the Commander of the 134th FS, 158th FW, VTANG was flying #1 and they all landed at Hanscom Field, debriefed and then flew back to Burlington where #4 was immediately grounded. I suspect a major butt chewing took place at Hanscom and then at Burlington.

Mike

mikewmac wrote: Chris,

I think that is exactly what happened. I read that the Red Sox announcer asked everyone to stand for our national anthem and the Boston Pops Orchestra started a drum roll. This keyed the on site controller to initiate the formation flyby from a holding pattern about 8 miles out. Then the announcer interupted for a few more remarks, the drum roll stopped and the controller had the 4 F-16C's enter another holding pattern closer in. Now the time and distance for forming up again for the flyby was apparently mariginal. As I understand it #3 just barely was able for form up, but needless to say #4 didn't make it. Of course at this point he should have broken off and there would have been a 3-ship formation flyby with none of the current fall out.

I also read that the Commander of the 134th FS, 158th FW, VTANG was flying #1 and they all landed at Hanscom Field, debriefed and then flew back to Burlington where #4 was immediately grounded. I suspect a major butt chewing took place at Hanscom and then at Burlington.

Mike

And I think we all agree he should have gotten reamed. He definitely erred in his decision making... as you said he should have rolled out and rejoined after the flyby. Wonder what his new callsign will be?

Wonder what his new callsign will be?

Belated
Tardy
Rolex (or "Roll-ex" lol)
Timely
Showboat


This could be a whole new topic in itself lol

Don't know how it works on the Air Force, but when we in PR Army Natl Guard do a flyby in our UH60's, we form up wayyyy before the pass time and just orbit and orbit and orbit till we almost get dizzy, just to make shure that we are going to be formed Ok. We orbit in a loose formation and when we are ready to do our pass, we tighten up to a close formation.

Lewis

Even if he had joined late and was still gonna take part wouldnt the simple safe thing to do have been to simply formate behind the lead 3 aircraft for the flyby, and not barrel roll over them. Seems to me that he may have been pushing hard and realised he was gonna overshoot them, or may have just been showing off really.
To be honest (and bear in mind I love to see military flying of great quality) I think he has shown a very unprofessional attitude towards this. His maneouver was very silly, and although nothing bad happened, it could have had very severe consequences.
But then none of us are infalable. I work on the ground and people do stupid things that they know they shouldnt all the time. In the air its do or die all of the time.

Nick