Military AI Works

Hi Friends,

Just wondering if anybody knows if there is a titorial available to making simple formation flight plans.

Being a scenery model designer I'm NOT all that up to speed with flight plans and multiple afcad design.
I had a go at making 3 of Nicks Hawk 127 fly side by side VFR by using 3 afcads (runways) and separated them by 100ft either end of the route but they soon merged on top of one another, like they were dragged to the same radial.
Because of this, I further separated the departure runways by 100ft or so by stepping them forward. So now the runways are 100ft apart from the side and 100ft apart in front of the preceeding aircraft.

Once again the AI merged to the same radial and rather than being side by side in flight, they are nose to tail.
Now the inbound runways are the same distance apart as the departure runways, so I would have thought being VFR that FS would have kept to a straight flight path between the departure and inbound runway but that dosen't seem to be the case in this experience.

I'm open to ideas or examples that I might be able follow. Yes, I have looked closely at the MAIW airshow files but they don't seem to work in Australia in the same way.

Mark

Hi Mark,
There are far more learned people than myself who can help with this sort of thing but I can answer a point or two.

Firstly with a designed departure from 3 runways, with three afcads, would work fine on take off the problem is that the next waypoint that they would go to would be one single point. Therefore you are correct that all he aircraft would come together. You would need to define three separate waypoints side by sideone for each aircraft. The other problem is that the greater the difference between points, the more similar the flight lines become so you may get some simplification by the AI engine, plus its not exactly 100% strict to start with as there is a tolerance. I believe that Mike's formation work all use points very short distances apart to get around this.

There is one problem inherent with separate afcads. They will completely ignore each other. So you can/will get aircraft taxy through each other. Nothing you can do about this.

I think that this is about all I can add here.

Definitely not an area of my expertise, but anyway...

Did you move the Airport Reference Points for each afcad to the centre of their runway? I only ask because often when I make an "overlay" afcad, I leave the reference point alone. But I understand (and I could be wrong) that the route FS will calculate for the AI is a "great circle" between the departure and the arrival Airport Reference Points. To me, it seems like your formation is possibly merging due to the common position of the departure and arrival Airport Reference Points (hence, an identical great circle route is defined for all three flights), assuming that you haven't yet moved the reference points to the centre of the new overlay-afcad runway positions.

Just a wild guess...

Hi Friends,

I think Steve has hit the nail on the head. The 3 aircraft come together after a small turn which would indicate a way point correction. The AI then proceed on there way and slowly merge together as one after a few miles.

I must adit, they look great until they reach that way point and would have added a bit more eye candy to the Sim if they stayed in formation. Quite often at RAAF Amberley and Williamtown a close formation fly-by would be conducted prior to landing, not to show off to those on the ground, but rather as a part of additional routine training and can be seen doing this for hundreds of miles out. I guess such training occurs in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Nick's 4 ship F14's are a fantastic way to take the effort out of flight plans, afcads and way points everywhere but alass, we can't have every AI in formation position of sorts.

I would liked a formation flight over the Sydney Harbour bridge and past the Opera House but as Steve said, it requires a learned person with better skills than me.

Mark

fishlips wrote:The 3 aircraft come together after a small turn which would indicate a way point correction. The AI then proceed on there way and slowly merge together as one after a few miles.

In which case, don't use that waypoint in your flightplan, and they won't merge.

However, I suspect that you are not using a waypoint. What you are seeing is the typical departure procedure flown by the AI engine (and real world is sometimes similar). When the aircraft departs, it doesn't simply head straight to its destination. Instead, it lines itself back up with the route. The flight route is a straight line (great circle) between the departure airport and the arrival airport. Unless the departure runway is pointing straight at the destination, taking off will mean that the aircraft makes a small deviation from this line. Once the aircraft attains a "safe altitude", it must then rejoin the route before heading to the departure airfield. It sounds to me like you are mistaking the point at which the aircraft finally intercepts its route as some sort of waypoint.

If you have not specifically used a waypoint, or you have not checked the position of the Airport Reference Point, then I'd put my money on my theory.

Then again, I may be mistaken, as you may have indeed used a specific waypoint (in which case try without), and you may also have already moved the Airport Reference Points to the correct positions for your intended purpose.

Mark,

There is no tutorial on AI formation flights that I am aware of. I've probably experimented with them as much as anyone and to the best of my knowledge and experience, and as Steve has indicated above, airport to airport AI formation flights, even with multiple parallel runways in separate AFCAD's at both the departure and arrival airports, would probably not work well due to the manner in which the FS AI engine and ATC controls the navigation for traditionally flightplanned AI departures, enroute flights and arrivals.

I have found ways around this within the AI visible area around airports and landmarks that allow AI formation departures, arrivals and flybys such as I used for the MAIW Airshow FP's, but to be honest with you I have never tried to find a way to make AI fly in formation enroute between 2 distant airports.

Mike

Hello Kungfuman.
You are right in some aspects, the waypoint I refer to is indeed the enroute vector, however each afcad is off set from one another. For example, the three runways are made as being from totally different airports. They are offset by approx 100-150ft apart, not only left and right but also front and back. I did it this way so the runways are not on the same enroute vector VHF, however the FS engine is still seeing them as coming from the same location and therefore is still using the same enroute vector and merging the AI. The only way around this I think, using my method, would be to separate the runways some distance a part which defeats the purpose.

Thanks all the same.

Mark

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your valued reply.

I really enjoy the MAIW airshow and would have liked to have done a simpler formation fly-by over Sydney Harbour and perhaps around a few of the Aussie fighter bases where such sights are common but it does seem way out of my league after placing many hours into it.

Unfortunately, there are not many suitable AI models developed in formation/s for such Fly-by events to take the hard work out of it, such as Nick Blacks 4 x F14's which are simply brillient to see buzz across the sky.
Understandably, such AI models look ugly on the ground in there movements but also understandably, they are not meant to be seen on the ground, ever, but rather hidden at a remote location when parked.
Whilist I personally would like to see a few existing AI models developed this way, for the reasons above, it would be most rude of me to ask a developer like Nick Black and your self to develop something that you are not in your self happy with doing. I can live in hope.

I for one really appreciate the hard work behind MAIW and are not for a moment dissapointed in any facet and and really get a kick out of every package. Thanks you all so much.

Mark

fishlips wrote:...the FS engine is still seeing them as coming from the same location and therefore is still using the same enroute vector and merging the AI.

Hi,

Can you confirm that the Airport Reference Points for each afcad are at different locations?

I still think that this could make the all important difference.

Good luck!

I mentioned this in another thread but this applies to AI formation flight:

Found on Flightsim.com

Name: rnzafa21.zip Size: 29,659,394 Date: 02-28-2009 Downloads: 649
FS2004 Royal New Zealand Air Force AI Airshow Package 2 Redux. A complete AI package of scenery, aircraft and flight plans, this is an airshow practice and sortie package which focuses on Ohakea airbase in New Zealand. You will see multi-ship crossovers and manoeuvres at high and low altitude, and heavily-armed aircraft depart for training on far shores, later to return unladen.

Also I have repeated flightplans (same plan but different aircraft numbers) and they ended up with a formation flight. Good example with my Afgan Ops plans, I use a CH-47 with a couple of AH-64s as escort. They join up and fly as formation together and land separately.

Hello Flyboy,

I will take a look at the FS2004 Royal New Zealand Air Force AI Airshow Package 2 Redux and see if that is what I am after and wheather it can be repeated around a busy sky like Sydney, RAAF Amberley and RAAF Williamtown.
So far, all my attempts have failed due the AI aircraft all using the same enroute vector path to the destination runways.

Each afcad has a different reference point located in the centre of each runway.

Thanks for your valued input.

Mark

Hi Flyboy,

The FS2004 Royal New Zealand Air Force AI Airshow Package 2 Redux is a wonderful display, however after looking closely at the afcads and flight plans, I simply can't grasp the concept or something in FS is not allowing it work.

You are aware that there are NBAI Skyhawks in NZ colours available on either Flightsim.com or Avsim (not sure which one) that could replace the F-16's or add further to the show.


Mark

fishlips,

If you use the Flights that comes with the package you will see all the actions. I substituted B-52H for the F-16s for fun and almost got a MITO take off that I have always wanted to duplicated with FS. There is two AFCADs NZ01 and NZ02 they are used for the starting positions for the F16s. He has multiple waypoints that each pair head to, then returns back to NZOH.

Mark,

I helped the author of the FS2004 Royal New Zealand Air Force AI Airshow Package learn and use my AI formation techniques after he installed and enjoyed my FS2004 AI Thunderbirds Flight Demo package described below and available at Flightsim.com:

Name: aitbdemo.zip Size: 6,662,250 Date: 02-15-2006 Downloads: 1,858
FS2004 AI Thunderbirds Formation Flight Demo. The USAF Air Demonstration Squadron popularly known as the Thunderbirds is based at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada and flys the Lockheed Martin F-16C Fighting Falcon. "America's Ambassadors in Blue" have performed for more than 288 million people in all 50 states and over 56 countries around the world since their formation as the U.S. Air Force's official air demonstration team at Luke Air Force Base on May 25, 1953. This AI package contains and utilizes Graham King's Thunderbird repaints on Henry Tomkiewicz's AI F-16C and D models to demonstrate the AI formation flights possible in Flight Simulator 2004. The simple scenario have used in this package takes place at Otis ANGB on Cape Cod. A small military training exercise including MA ANG F-15A's and F-16C's from the VT, NJ and NY ANG is interupted by a brief layover by the AI Thunderbirds who are on an East Coast tour and visit Otis for a one day practice session. By Mike MacIntyre.

The FS2004 AI Thunderbirds Flight Demo package is lighter in content than the MAIW Airshow package and may be easier to learn from.

Mike

fishlips wrote:Each afcad has a different reference point located in the centre of each runway.

Bang goes my theory

Looking forward to seeing the result of your learning on this topic one day.

Good luck!

Hi friends,

Firstly I would like to thank you all for your input and advice on this high tech flight planning.

As a scenery model designer first and foremost, I haven't really had much experience with advanced flight planning, having used welded models in the past that only require a VFR standard point to point flight plan with a departure and landing airport hidden way out to sea or out of the common flight paths on land.

I never thought that a formation would all that be difficult given a bit of thought but I recieved a rude awakening and new appreciation for the people that develop these wonderful air displays.

Well a few on with little result, I have say that I have o place this on the back burner as I need to return to my RAAF military scenery development projects that have fallen much overdue.
Hopefully one day I can return to this or may be someone can take it on when there looking for a project.

Thanks again,

Mark