Question about your MAIW Nato Sentrys Package

[LXKevin]

Hey dear users!

First of all I hope that I got the right topic...
I am currently "enhancing" the airport of Luxembourg (ELLX). I use your MAIW Nato Sentrys Package to have all those Sentrys (registered in Luxembourg) in my FS9.
As they are based in Geilenkirchen and as they are sometimes flying Touch'n'Go's in Luxembourg and as this is one of the best moments here in Luxembourg hearing the sound of those "old" birds coming and going, I wanted to create this aswell in the FS9. So I thought you could maybe "update" your package with 1 or 2 touch'n'go's in the week. Another possible "solution" would be that I can use your AI-aircraft and only generate a new file! (This file will then aswell been uploaded to this fourm/page!)

So I now just need some of the responsibles to say, if I can do it or not!
I will now do the three files and then we can see further. Will post them when I have finished them!

greets and hoping that you want to "work" together with me!

BTW: I am working on a scenery "enhancement" for the Aerosoft Luxembourg Airports. Maybe you want that too...?

[BadPvtDan]

Hey dear users!

First of all I hope that I got the right topic...
I am currently "enhancing" the airport of Luxembourg (ELLX). I use your MAIW Nato Sentrys Package to have all those Sentrys (registered in Luxembourg) in my FS9.
As they are based in Geilenkirchen and as they are sometimes flying Touch'n'Go's in Luxembourg and as this is one of the best moments here in Luxembourg hearing the sound of those "old" birds coming and going, I wanted to create this aswell in the FS9. So I thought you could maybe "update" your package with 1 or 2 touch'n'go's in the week. Another possible "solution" would be that I can use your AI-aircraft and only generate a new file! (This file will then aswell been uploaded to this fourm/page!)

We don't take requests. Your best bet would be to create a new file.

So I now just need some of the responsibles to say, if I can do it or not!
I will now do the three files and then we can see further. Will post them when I have finished them!

greets and hoping that you want to "work" together with me!

BTW: I am working on a scenery "enhancement" for the Aerosoft Luxembourg Airports. Maybe you want that too...?

[LXKevin]

We don't take requests. Your best bet would be to create a new file.

Ok that's what I supposed! Thanks for your help!

I have a question regarding Touch'n Go's in FS9. Is it like in reality that the airplane sets up on the runway and then fly away or? I have already created a .bgl file with the flightplan, but the airplane lands and then goes to a stand..

Here the flightplan:
AC#0001,LX-N904,1%,WEEK,VFR,1/14:00:00,TNG@15:10:00,120,R,4274,ELLX,18:00:12,@22:35:23,330,F,4274,ETNG
AC#0002,LX-N904,1%,WEEK,VFR,1/15:00:00,TNG@16:10:00,120,R,4275,ELLX,19:00:12,@23:35:23,330,F,4275,ETNG

Or is there simply something I forgot?

greets and thanks for your help!
Kevin

[Greg]

AC#0001,LX-N904,1%,WEEK,VFR,1/14:00:00,TNG@15:10:00,120,R,4274,ELLX,18:00:12,@22:35:23,330,F,4274,ETNG
AC#0002,LX-N904,1%,WEEK,VFR,1/15:00:00,TNG@16:10:00,120,R,4275,ELLX,19:00:12,@23:35:23,330,F,4275,ETNG

First, don't use the '@', it will give you more trouble than it's worth

Second, if you're making weekly flightplans you must specify the day of the week in front of every departure or arrival time. Like this:

AC#0001,LX-N904,1%,WEEK,VFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:10:00,120,R,4274,ELLX,1/18:00:12,1/22:35:23,330,F,4274,ETNG

The aircraft will depart from ETNG on Monday at 1400Z, fly to ELLX, make touch and goes until 1510Z and land at ELLX. It will depart again at ELLX at 1800Z, fly to ETNG were it will do touch and goes until 2235Z and land.

Just for reference: you can't fly VFR at FL120 of FL330 over Germany, and FL330 is way too high for such a short transit anyway

[Firebird]

OK a couple of things here. Firstly remove the '@' symbols from your flightplans. It is a left over from the old days, PAI (I think), to avoid aircraft being late and disappearing. If you use a modern flight plan compiler, for example AIFP, then they will take into consideration the aircraft cruising speed and will offer more accurate times of arrival than you will probably make yourself.

Now on the art of TNGs. There are two things that you should know. Firstly, the TNG will be different according to whether the flightplan is a VFR or an IFR one. A VFR one will approach, land and then take off again, known as a 'roller'. An IFR one will approach but overshoot before landing.

Secondly, to avoid problems there should a gap of between 2-5 mins between the legs in the flight plan. Experience has shown that if the gap is too small, or indeed if it departs before it is supposed to arrive, the plane may not show up in the sim at all. It doesn't know how to handle it and removes it completely. Too large a gap and the aircraft may never stop doing it's TNGs and go to it's destination.

Using your first example LX-N904 would transit from ETNG to ELLX and then perform rollers until 15:10. What you need to do is alter the departure time from ELLX fro 18:00 to 15:13, then it will fly back to ETNG and land. If your intention is to have it fly circuits until 18:00, you should alter the arrival time for the first leg from 15:10 to 17:57.

Have I have explained this clearly enough?

[Greg]

Secondly, to avoid problems there should a gap of between 2-5 mins between the legs in the flight plan. Experience has shown that if the gap is too small, or indeed if it departs before it is supposed to arrive, the plane may not show up in the sim at all. It doesn't know how to handle it and removes it completely. Too large a gap and the aircraft may never stop doing it's TNGs and go to it's destination.

Using your first example LX-N904 would transit from ETNG to ELLX and then perform rollers until 15:10. What you need to do is alter the departure time from ELLX fro 18:00 to 15:13, then it will fly back to ETNG and land. If your intention is to have it fly circuits until 18:00, you should alter the arrival time for the first leg from 15:10 to 17:57.

This of course, is only valid if you don't want your plane to land at ELLX but immediately return to ETNG after finishing its circuit training

[LXKevin]

Ok thanks!

First of all this is then the new flightplan:

AC#0001,902,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:10:00,120,R,4274,ELLX,1/15:13:12,1/16:13:12,150,F,4274,ETNG
AC#0002,904,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/15:00:00,TNG1/16:10:00,120,R,4275,ELLX,1/16:13:12,1/17:13:24,150,F,4275,ETNG

One more thing, I don't understand the difference between IFR Touching and VFR Touching? Isn't it the same?
When I fly (in real now) and performing a VFR Touch'n Go I touch the runway with my wheels (what else? ) and then give full thrust and accelerate and take off again. There is no difference between IFR and VFR Touch'ing. Could you just explain that a little bit easier. I'm a completely noob of generating AI-Traffic (Sorry!)

Thanks again for all your answers!!

greets Kevin

[Greg]

In flightsim, an IFR "TNG" is actually a low approach. I know you can do a touch and go out of an IFR approach in real life, but that's the way it is

Actually when you consider the NATO E-3's, it's not that different from the real thing. I've controlled many E-3's during circuit training at Beauvechain Air Base and when they flew VFR patterns they touched, but out of an IFR approach they would most of the time go around to save time and fuel so they could do more runs.

Concerning AI flightplans, there is no easy way to learn it. What we suggest to everyone is that they read the manual that comes with Traffic Tools (TTools). If you still have questions after that, we'll be here to help

[Garysb]

Dont forget Kevin that that plan you have done will only work once on a Monday you need to add other legs for other days

1=Mon
2=Tue
3=Wed
4=Thur
5=Fri
6=Sat
0=sun

Gary

[LXKevin]

Yes Gary I know that, but normally the E-3A's comes on Monday, so I only want that they make their Touch'n Go's on Monday.

Just one more thing:

AC#0001,902,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:10:00,120,R,4274,ELLX,1/15:13:12,1/16:13:12,150,R,4274,ETNG
AC#0002,904,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/15:00:00,TNG1/16:10:00,120,R,4275,ELLX,1/16:13:12,1/17:13:24,150,R,4275,ETNG

I highlighted the concerning letter. In military circles, do you use "F" or "R"? I mean do you use a Flightnumber or the Registration of the aircraft?

greets and thanks for all your help!
Kevin

[kungfuman]

Yes Gary I know that, but normally the E-3A's comes on Monday, so I only want that they make their Touch'n Go's on Monday.

Just one more thing:

AC#0001,902,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:10:00,120,R,4274,ELLX,1/15:13:12,1/16:13:12,150,R,4274,ETNG
AC#0002,904,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/15:00:00,TNG1/16:10:00,120,R,4275,ELLX,1/16:13:12,1/17:13:24,150,R,4275,ETNG

I highlighted the concerning letter. In military circles, do you use "F" or "R"? I mean do you use a Flightnumber or the Registration of the aircraft?

greets and thanks for all your help!
Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Normally you'd use the "F" tag. You'll want the ATC to refer to this aircraft using its callsign and number (eg. "NATO One-Three, cleared touch and go...").

[LXKevin]

Thanks for this!

I have another question. This is not clear enough for me in the TTools ReadMe.
If I want that the AWACS will do two Touch'n Go's, how can I make them continue that?
I read a little bit here and on the net and there they say that then we should use "non-existing airports" over the atlantic?
Or do I only have to reintroduce a line. Like this:

AC#0001,902,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:10:00,120,F,4274,ELLX,1/15:13:12,TNG1/15:23:00,120,F,4274,ELLX,1/15:26:12,1/16:13:24,150,F,4275,ETNG
AC#0002,904,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/15:00:00,TNG1/16:10:00,120,F,4275,ELLX,1/16:13:12,1/17:13:24,150,F,4275,ETNG

I can't believe that this should be true, because logically seen it is completely unlogical (what a sentence...)

greets and thanks Kevin

[kungfuman]

Thanks for this!

I have another question. This is not clear enough for me in the TTools ReadMe.
If I want that the AWACS will do two Touch'n Go's, how can I make them continue that?

While on a "TNG" leg, the aircraft will continuously fly touch'n'goes. If you want it to do more touch'n'goes at the same airport, make the "TNG" leg last for a longer period of time.

If you want to see the aircraft do touch'n'goes at a second airport, then you just add the "TNG" code to that leg. You may need a proper "full-stop" landing leg between two touch'n'go legs - I can't remember.

I read a little bit here and on the net and there they say that then we should use "non-existing airports" over the atlantic?
Or do I only have to reintroduce a line. Like this:

AC#0001,902,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:10:00,120,F,4274,ELLX,1/15:13:12,TNG1/15:23:00,120,F,4274,ELLX,1/15:26:12,1/16:13:24,150,F,4275,ETNG
AC#0002,904,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/15:00:00,TNG1/16:10:00,120,F,4275,ELLX,1/16:13:12,1/17:13:24,150,F,4275,ETNG

I can't believe that this should be true, because logically seen it is completely unlogical (what a sentence...)

greets and thanks Kevin

Studying philosophy (with physics) has rendered me incapable of comprehending you here...

Edit:

Hang on, you've got it! The bit of code I've coloured red represents the approximate period of time that the aircraft will do touch'n'goes. Forget the Atlantic! (And don't bother with Philosophy either...)

[Greg]

If you want to see the aircraft do touch'n'goes at a second airport, then you just add the "TNG" code to that leg. You may need a proper "full-stop" landing leg between two touch'n'go legs - I can't remember.

No you can't have two consecutive TNG legs in an IFR flightplan. It will give you all sorts of trouble.

But like Dan said, if you want the aircraft to fly more circuits, just add some time after "TNG". The aircraft will fly circuits until the time set after "TNG" and then begin the next leg (if the next departure time is between 2 and 5 minutes after the time set after "TNG").

You only need the "fake" airports if you want to simulate your aircraft flying away to e.g. a training zone.

[LXKevin]

So the flightplan would then look like:

AC#0001,902,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:10:00,120,F,902,ELLX,1/16:13:12,1/16:17:12,150,F,902,ETNG
AC#0002,904,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/15:00:00,TNG1/16:10:00,120,F,902,ELLX,1/16:50:12,1/17:17:24,150,F,902,ETNG

I hope now I have it....
greets Kevin

[kungfuman]

So the flightplan would then look like:

AC#0001,902,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/14:00:00,TNG1/15:30:00,120,F,902,ELLX,1/15:32:12,1/16:17:12,150,F,902,ETNG
AC#0002,904,1%,WEEK,IFR,1/15:00:00,TNG1/16:30:00,120,F,902,ELLX,1/16:32:12,1/17:17:24,150,F,902,ETNG

I hope now I have it....
greets Kevin

The bits in red should be set to the times that you want the aircraft to finish its touch'n'goes. At the moment, you have these set to the calculated "arrival" time (I think), so currently, the aircraft will arrive and then just land. You need to set these times later (say about fifteen to thirty minutes later, for example), so rather than just land, the aircraft will spend some time doing touch'n'goes before it lands. If you don't want the aircraft to land at ELLX, instead you want it to return to ETNG, then you start that return leg to ETNG a couple of minutes after the TNG leg ends. See the Purple amendments I've made.

At least, I think that's how it works.

[LXKevin]

At least, I think that's how it works.

Ok I tested it fast now and it seemed to work...
Well thanks for your help. I will get that thing now to Beta-test and then I will release it!

greets Kevin