Trading Hogs for Eagles

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 15 Sep 2007, 05:18

Saying Goodbye to Hogs: The Massachusetts Air National Guard's 104th Fighter Wing at Barnes Airport sent off its last A-10 attack jet, reports The Republican. Although wing airmen may feel nostalgic since the unit operated Warthogs for nearly 30 years, they will be continuing flying operations. As we reported earlier, they have traded for F-15s. The 104th FW picks up the Northeast air defense mission from Otis ANGB, Mass., where the 102nd FW takes on an intelligence mission.

From Air Force Magazine online 14 Sep 07

MIKE JG · Post by **MIKE JG** » 15 Sep 2007, 12:55

A nice upgrade I would say.

Feel bad for the guys at Otis.

Last time I was up at Bradley, there were only a couple A-10s left on their ramp. They already had some C-21s sitting there.

Going from A-10s to C-21s, now I'd call that a downgrade.............

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 15 Sep 2007, 15:25

One of those mixed blessings. You get to haul some VIPs-That's visibility, you get to travel to lots of other bases, that's fun and you don't deploy to Afghanistan or Iraq-that's security. Unless you are a hunter then it is all a bummer.

jgibson_sniper · Post by **jgibson_sniper** » 15 Sep 2007, 16:21

I would say the real downgrade is going from any flying mission to unmanned drones (Predator). I'd rather fly Beech 1900 for the rest of my career then that.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 15 Sep 2007, 17:27

I was under the impression that the UAV pilots are all rated and still fly some proficiency in fixed wing birds like the T-38. But that is just a WAG.
I got out before the UAV became a key system. There is a UAV pilot, Ken Stallings that posts over at SimOuthouse.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 15 Sep 2007, 20:09

Here is the straight skinny on UAV Pilots-from Ken Stallings. He are one

Yes, all USAF Predator pilots and Global Hawk pilots are rated Air Force officers. They either graduated from UPT, or are UNT graduates who have also earned their FAA Commercial and Instrument tickets. A few were provided waivers to the Commercial ticket (including myself) because AFSOC needed pilots quickly. But it didn't matter, we are still very much rated pilots who have the 011 AFSC, earn flight pay, gate months, are called aircraft commanders, and in my case I'm close to earning my FAA Commercial multi-engine and single engine tickets anyway. But the main delay on that is the insane hours I'm flying in my squadron! I fly more hours per year than do airline pilots! The truth is that if I worked a normal schedule I would have finished that ticket many months ago.

The Army does it differently. The Army will take enlisted troops of various ages without any formal pilot training, and put them at the controls after a brief training schools they run.

The Navy is purchasing Predators and I'm not 100% sure how they intend to fly them.

The Army has far more UAS platforms than does the USAF. But most of these are smaller aircraft such as Hunter and Dragon Eye. So, in a strict sense, most UAS pilots are not formally trained pilots. It's a source of controversy inside the DoD, and I believe it's no coincidence that the only two cases of a UAS having a mid-air with a manned aircraft are two cases of Army flown UAS's colliding with Army helicopters!

If one is talking USAF UAS's then it is 100% certain that they graduated from either UPT or UNT, and the UNT guys are licensed pilots also. but a wise decision was made that you need combat seasoned aviators to lead a complex combat mission.

No, there is no SAC style fixed-wing flying program to augment the pilot skills. We've tried to get the AF brass to purchase us some Mentors to perform that role, but can't get them to do it. Several guys have decided to fly general aviation aircraft on the side to maintain proficiency. But to be honest, the Predator flies just like a regular aircraft that it's not difficult to remain proficient in basic stick and rudder, especially if you conduct the takeoffs and landings. For me, my personally owned Skyhawk does the trick and this is augmented with my multi-engine flying that I do by renting or borrowing other people's aircraft.

SMOC · Post by **SMOC** » 15 Sep 2007, 20:14

UAV pilots are rated pilots... and up until somewhat recently they were pilots from other airframes prior to taking over UAVs or UAS. I know March, TX ANG, and I believe AZ ANG are advertising for Predator pilots at which point if selected they will go to UPT and then head off to a 3 month Predator school. I believe in the ND ANG(Fargo) that their pilots are are able to fly both the Predator and the C-21A. As for as active duty, I believe if you are assigned as a Predator pilot, you are flying Predators for the length of your tour and nothing else. ANG seems to vary from base to base and if other airframes are assigned. It would seem Globalhawk would be the same out of Beale.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 15 Sep 2007, 22:35

There was a story in the Houston papers some time ago describing the loss of the F-16s at Ellington (KEFD) and the beginning of UAV operations there. A guess would be they would be for border patrol. Ellington is a base for Coast Guard and NASA operations also. Would make a great AI traffic opportunity.

I have a retired AF Colonel Friend there who lives on the downwind leg for the runway.

Bone184 · Post by **Bone184** » 18 Sep 2007, 00:04

jgibson_sniper wrote:I would say the real downgrade is going from any flying mission to unmanned drones (Predator). I'd rather fly Beech 1900 for the rest of my career then that.

I'd say a downgrade would be going from any flying mission to a non-flying. That's happened to alot of ANG units here recently.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 18 Sep 2007, 03:06

A very wise Senior Sergeant told me early in my career that I was commissioned to be an Officer. My assignment as aircrew, staff, etc was always secondary. There is no 'contract' per se except your commission.
If you don't want your job-you can resign your commission. There is a hierarchy of sorts but it is informal and mostly imagined. Many fine Officers rose to high rank and responsibility in all sorts of career paths. I always felt that job satisfaction was high on my list of priorities-But I may be a Pollyanna for thinking I was always able to find something that satisfied me in every assignment. A big part of that was mutual respect for what 'others' were doing to accomplish the mission. I never really set out to be a Staff Officer but it brought some of the most satisfying and motivating jobs I held in 29 years and 9 months. Whether you see a job as a downgrade from some other job is largely a matter of what you want to do rather than how you contribute to the mission. If you were a flyer and permanently grounded- the world and your career does not end, it just changes course. I knew a few guys like that and they did great and enjoyed their contribution to the USAF. Some said, "I just want to fly, let me do my entire career in the cockpit." Statistics will show that isn't possible, because those same people didn't add in " I will be glad to be a lieutenant or Captain my entire career." The USAF needs senior leadership in every division, branch and speciality. That means changing jobs to meet the needs of the Air Force.

SMOC · Post by **SMOC** » 18 Sep 2007, 03:33

It's true, USAF preaches an officer before AFSC... and in most cases it seems to hold true. Some people simply want to fly though and don't want to be bogged down with leadership issues, staff work and/or SOS/ACSC/AWC, etc... There is a hierarchy(it seems more prevalent in AD vice ANG) that begins and ends with zipper suits. Make no mistake about it, it's the AIR Force. I can't help but question officer before AFSC when almost all high level leadership are zipper suits. I've known plenty of good officers who have had their career end at O5 or O6 when the zipper suits advance despite not having the same credentials.

I'd say a downgrade would be going from any flying mission to a non-flying. That's happened to alot of ANG units here recently.

Ask a pilot if they would rather not fly or fly a predator... most, if not all, would gladly not fly anything. Unless of course they haven't met all their gates for flight pay.

Bone184 · Post by **Bone184** » 18 Sep 2007, 03:46

SMOC wrote:It's true, USAF preaches an officer before AFSC... and in most cases it seems to hold true. Some people simply want to fly though and don't want to be bogged down with leadership issues, staff work and/or SOS/ACSC/AWC, etc... There is a hierarchy(it seems more prevalent in AD vice ANG) that begins and ends with zipper suits. Make no mistake about it, it's the AIR Force. I can't help but question officer before AFSC when almost all high level leadership are zipper suits. I've known plenty of good officers who have had their career end at O5 or O6 when the zipper suits advance despite not having the same credentials.

I'd say a downgrade would be going from any flying mission to a non-flying. That's happened to alot of ANG units here recently.
Ask a pilot if they would rather not fly or fly a predator... most, if not all, would gladly not fly anything. Unless of course they haven't met all their gates for flight pay.

I'm not just talking about the pilots, I'm talking about the Aircrews & Ground Crews that support the flying mission. One the "flying" is gone then those people must find another calling & sometimes find another way of life.

SMOC · Post by **SMOC** » 18 Sep 2007, 03:54

Bone184 wrote:I'm not just talking about the pilots, I'm talking about the Aircrews & Ground Crews that support the flying mission. One the "flying" is gone then those people must find another calling & sometimes find another way of life.

Well, I think of MXS and OPS in somewhat the same light, they normally take pride in the particular airframe they work and play on... ANG especially(since they chose to join that unit unlike AD who get shipped to needs of USAF). So I don't think they would want to work on a predator either. But I get your point, when you're trained as a crew chief on F-16s and you have no F-16s to work on life can be tough.

GZR_Sactargets · Post by **GZR_Sactargets** » 24 Sep 2007, 01:25

Think Big Picture: "Everyone is not going to be totally satisfied and ecstatic with the outcome," of mission realignments, National Guard Bureau chief Lt. Gen. Steven Blum told defense reporters Wednesday morning, and the Air Guard is "going to have to make some tough choices" during the transition from old missions to emerging ones. "We're going to have to divest of some old aircraft that are near and dear to a lot of people and a lot of communities, and [that] have a lot of tradition attached to them," he said. Blum cited the case of North Dakota's Air Guard, which recently gave up its old F-16s for C-21s and Predator operations. Later, the "Happy Hooligans" are expected to take on Joint Cargo Aircraft missions. The key to minimizing political fireworks, explained Blum, will be to "figure out what the nation really needs, and what the governor really needs. There is a balance there."

Sep 20 07- Air Force Daily Report.

Trading Hogs for Eagles

Trading Hogs for Eagles

More 'spin' on mission changes!