F-15 vs F-5

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Post by GZR_Sactargets »

LOL- yep water goes strange places at times. One technique that is often used to try to recoup costs is technology trading or multi-marketing. A Sub contractor or even the main contractor will sell or liscence stuff to another manufacturer to try to get some of the development stuff paid off. Also some government contracts will specify using "off the shelf" items instead of new development. It can also be a way to influence the Congress. By having sub contractor in many states, that represents cash to the constituents. The B-1 had a ton of those. Many of the internals on the F-117 are also from other projects. That saved time and money both.

At one time, most new developments were company initiatives and companies absorbed the development costs. With complexity and higher costs to extend technology it was difficult for a company to continue to do that. We then went to specifications for a new item and later a more restricted Request for Proposal system. The company offered to develop a system to meet the specifications but also included the development costs. That led to some joint projects and eventually to mergers. In the middle of all that are sub-contractors (but many of those are also being absorbed by the big guys or driven out of business by the expense of development or production). We also shifted
from a production decision based on expected performance back to competitive "fly-off." There are very extensive reports of various phases of those tests with supporting documentation for the decisions that are made. They are not readily available to the public as a rule. There have also been lots of articles and even books outlining the history of a project. Usually those are very speculative as the 'real' reports are classified for a number of years after the fact. That is purposely done to avoid revealing any shortfalls or vulnerabilities.

As you pointed out, often the systems from a failed proposal wind up as modifications to a system that was produced. Even that is based on a proposal, testing and then a production modification decision. Those decisions relate to the -x mod after the airplane type. (F-16 block 40 for example). There are clear and distinct descriptions of what the 'Block 40'
adds to the airplane. Like many things in the 'modern' world the complexities begin to overwhelm the reality of the end game. Negotiating the maze of procurement can be a mind-boggling experience. :D
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Post by The Jason »

VulcanDriver wrote:Has the F-15 ever been up against a MiG-29 or Su-27? The Luftwaffe flew MiG-29s after the wall came down and I was wondering if they tested them against USAF F-15s based in Germany?

John
Yes, during the first Gulf War, F-15's shot down 5 MiG-29s and another 4 Yugoslav MiG-29's during the Kosovo campaign
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Post by drmweaver2 »

during the first Gulf War, F-15's shot down 5 MiG-29s and another 4 Yugoslav MiG-29's during the Kosovo campaign
Yeah, but the quality of the pilots on the "losing end" was nothing near equal to that of the "victorious". This isn't because they were dumb people. They were simply not beneficiaries of the amount of training or even just equal flight hours to the Americans.

The point is, these were not fights that were determined by the quality of the aircraft themselves.

The situations were also disadvantageous to those shot down due to operating at a significant numbers disadvantage.

So, these losses were nothing comparable to the Russian-flown Migs vs American aircraft battles that occured during the Korean and Vietnam Wars. It was more like me beating up on my 6 year old nephew - now, when I outweigh, out-strength and out-experience him by orders of magnitude. It was simply no contest.

In the case of the Gulf War, the Migs were operating under orders to flee to safety/avoid contact after the third day of the Desert Shield period. ((I believe that some aircraft that DID flee Iraq remain in Iran to this day.) OTOH, over Yugoslavia, the Migs didn't have anywhere near the situational awareness advantage provided the Americans by AWACs controllers. AFAIK and remember, the Migs were completely surprised and things went downhill for them within seconds. In both cases, the Mig29 maintenance situation on the ground was also questionable in terms of quality and logistical status (may have been being flown with more "downs" than any Brit/American aircraft would ever be allowed to fly with).

Ultimately, I am pretty sure I can beat a 1969 VW Beetle with a 2006 Porsche if the Porsche Racing Team is behind me at the track and you send me to race driver's school beforehand but don't give those advantages to the other guy. (tongue-in-cheek) :twisted:
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Post by BadPvtDan »

John,

All that being said is like saying...well, their team had a lot of injuries and that's why they lost...or if Matt Hughes had only ducked that first St Pierre punch things might have gone differently...at the end of the day...a win is a win.
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F-16 vs Mig 29

Post by GZR_Sactargets »

I guess this was ACM perhaps at Nellis or Edwards? Pretty good video

http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos. ... force-a.nl
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Post by drmweaver2 »

BadPvtDan wrote:All that being said is like saying...well, their team had a lot of injuries and that's why they lost...or if Matt Hughes had only ducked that first St Pierre punch things might have gone differently...at the end of the day...a win is a win.
Um, not really. I think it's definitely one thing to say that the A6M2 Zero shot down x number of F-6F's and that it shot down y number of P-39's. In the first case, the P-39 was no match in a dogfight, by practically any definiton or qualitative measure, for the Zero. OTOH, the F6F was a completely different animal and when the F6F came up against Zeros later in the war, the outcome of individual dogfights was a much a function of the initial conact situation as it was the aircraft itself. That is, the experience levels of the pilots could be argued to have been much less of a factor due to both sides having experienced pilots by then -- though in many cases especially as the end of the war neared, the opposite was the case (obviously, the closer one gets to the end of the war, the fewer experienced pilots remained in Japan).

I really don't really to get into an argument, but, let's be fair about this. The closest thing to a "fair fight" between F-15s and Mig-29's has occured over US airspace out in the West --- and those were only simulated battlefield conditions due to the onus of non-wartime safety restrictions superimposed on them as opposed to real time, life and death situations where "the book" is thrown out the cockpit.
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Post by BadPvtDan »

Hehe, nah no arguments. But I have been an infantryman and a mixed martial artist...I DETEST fair fights :)
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Post by The Jason »

How about the Finnish who flew the Brewster Buffalo against the Russians and Germans during WWII and shot down 496 aircraft for the loss of 19 of their own. That's a 26:1 ratio.

Obsolete aircraft but great flying and air combat skills.
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Post by GZR_Sactargets »

One interesting aspect of all these 'arguments' is they are usually based on tests. Those are used to determine probabilities to use in comparison of types, likelihood of success in combat, etc. My Attrition shop used to compute those all the time for proposed missions. WE also always warned the operations types that any probabilities went out the window when the "real" shooting started. The reality is at the moment-everything else is an estimate.
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Post by drmweaver2 »

The Jason wrote:How about the Finnish who flew the Brewster Buffalo against the Russians and Germans during WWII and shot down 496 aircraft for the loss of 19 of their own. That's a 26:1 ratio.

Obsolete aircraft but great flying and air combat skills.
Unless I am completely out to lunch, those numbers are completely erroneous as they represent "all types involved" on both sides. So, there's no distinction made between a Buffalo or a Finnish P-40 on the one side and none between an ME-109, a Storch or an IL/Yak-xx on the other side.

Sorry mate.. completely useless comment there unless my sourcing is what is wrong, which I don't believe is the case.

To put things in real perspective, the great German ace Marseille gained many of his victories in North Africa against aircraft that were flying in a Lufbury Circle as a defensive tactic... Marseille discovered that the circle was completely outdated against "then modern" aircraft like his ME-109 and proceeded to rack up impressive numbers. OTOH, his victories against "same level fighter aircraft" as his ME-109 were much lower in number though still quite impressive. Shooting down a transport simply isn't in the same realm as combat against an armed oppnent flying an "equivalent" aircraft...

Remember the thread title.. F-15 v F-5. The thread posits that these ARE equivalent simply by raising the question. I then argued that perhaps a better comparison might have been the F-15 v F-20.

But enough of this for me... I've got AI aircraft to install, afcads to make and planes to fly.
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Post by VulcanDriver »

Check this site out for an interesting F-15 comparison

http://www.lightning.org.uk/archive/0307.php

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Post by jetmax »

F-15 wasn't designed to be a dog fighter, it was designed to kill Bears. If you want a Dog fighter, fly a F-16. :D
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Post by VulcanDriver »

jetmax wrote:F-15 wasn't designed to be a dog fighter, it was designed to kill Bears. If you want a Dog fighter, fly a F-16. :D
Neither was the Lightning, it was designed as a point defence interceptor. E.g it would defend the RAF's V-Bomber bases from Soviet air attack, the idea was for it to zoom up to their altitude, fire its two missiles (yes only two!), land re-arm and go up again. Latter versions had cannons fitted.

To be honest until the Typhoon entered RAF service, the UK didn't have a dedicated dogfighter. The Lightning wasn't, the F-4 wasn't and the F3 version of the Tornado certainly isn't! In fact F3 drivers run for home when they see F-16's on the prowl during NATO exercises.

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Post by Hape31 »

drmweaver2 wrote:
The Jason wrote:How about the Finnish who flew the Brewster Buffalo against the Russians and Germans during WWII and shot down 496 aircraft for the loss of 19 of their own. That's a 26:1 ratio.

Obsolete aircraft but great flying and air combat skills.
Unless I am completely out to lunch, those numbers are completely erroneous as they represent "all types involved" on both sides. So, there's no distinction made between a Buffalo or a Finnish P-40 on the one side and none between an ME-109, a Storch or an IL/Yak-xx on the other side.

Sorry mate.. completely useless comment there unless my sourcing is what is wrong, which I don't believe is the case.
This is off-topic, but I have to say that in Continuation War only Fighter Squadron 24 shot down 460 Soviet aircraft with Brewsters. Actually total Brewster-losses were only 15 own aircraft in Continuation War. Total kills were 496 aircraft (including German and Soviet planes) and total losses 19 Brewsters during World War II. So no erroneous numbers. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Buffalo#Finland Sorry off-topic. Back to business. :wink:
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