F-101B Dark Horse Project

[sr01]

My 1st venture into FSDS aircraft modelling and this is what the beast looks like in both FSDS and in game with no texture except for the Perspex ,gear ,pilots ,speed brakes and flaps (plus a few antenae .
I've cleaned out the shell by reducing poly's here and there .The transparent parts I’ll leave for now as far as .
Result is 474 polygrams in game for the canopy .checked it out in game with a texture for the perspex and here’s the results . .Polygon count in game is currently 17641 .HOWEVER that ain’t with gear flaps and speed brakes etc .It’s actually not the way I wanted to shape and do the canopy , but Boolean in FSDS is a POS and doesn’t cut it . Has anyone accomplished this ?
It's been a disaster as far as my efforts .I’m looking into porting the project over to Gmax using CVA Converter as Gmax can accomplish what I want to do whist leaving my hair in place .
So here's a few questions and a shopping list
1- Is a polygon # @ 1764 or 2074 at this stage OK for frame rates??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
2- What causes polygram points to wander after saving a model ? For instance the port wingtip became concave instead of convex .
3- when copying and pasting ,let's say the wing , from left to right why would the result NOT echo the original?
As you can clearly see the starboard wing wrickled up when reproduced rom the original left side . The right engine nacelle is a horror show !
4- Would modelling a left side and then copy/pasting the whole model alleviate these problems???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
5- where can I find ai pilots ??? I've googled everywhere ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
6- if anyone has any other questions ,feel free to add them here with no worries about highjacking the thread .After all it would be for the benefit of all .
Lessons learned (some the hard way)
1-SAVE SAVE and then SAVE AGAIN
I'm am so far up to 38 saves on this the 10 sided fuselage version
2- 8 sided fuselages fuselages don't make it .
3- A 10 sided fuselage looks just as fine as a 20 sider
4- Boolean cuts in FSDS just don't cut it !!
5- Lesson learned from John Young .Go into model and check progress to confirm how it looks especially for reflections .
6- Transfer of 3 views to .bmp then in FSDS WILL create distortions
7- 3 ,4 and 5 view drawings are often inaccurate and some creators use a lot of artistic licence in making their drawings.In the case of this A/C I have 6 sets and NOT ONE is accurate .Paul Matt is one of a few ,that I could use with confidence ,knowing that the drawings would be extremely accurate .It's too bad he passed away just as modern jets were coming into vogue.
8- Get a 64ths or even better a 100th graduated ruler .
9- Save and occasionally leave the room and say hello to the wife

[fishlips]

I'd need to see the source file to be able to comment on your issues that are concerning you!
Don't worry, I don't borrow other peoples work for my own gain, not that it would take me long to make your model's fuselage if I desired an interest in historial airframes.

Mark

[sr01]

Mark
Thank's !!!
I'll PM you my email address
I'll pay the shipping and handling charges both ways File is 393 KB
The fuselage wasn't really a problem
Had my 1st serious FSDS crash this AM while sectioning the fuselage in halve and then sawing a hole for the cockpit !!
Lesson learned .
If you borrowed this for your own gain ,you'd be in seriuos trouble. Unless,of course ,if you took a close look for a good laugh .

[brianf51]

I've used FSDS for many years now and find it easy and stable to use. I would also like to take a look at the fsx file if that's ok?

Brian Franklin (Simshed)

[sr01]

I'll add Question #6 - Is there any way in FSDS to not select a point that's hidden so that if you'r going to manipulate or remove the point you want to work on ,the "hidden "one doesn't go with it ?
As for my request for pilots .I'll be making me own pilotees ( They'll all be female with big "wingspans" )

[fishlips]

I'm not totally sure what you mean by hidden point but you can select the point you want to move or delete by pressing :N" pr "P" to scan through all the points within a part. If its a large part with heaps of points, then sometimes I will go into poly mode, highlight the poly with the point or points contained that I wish to move and split those poly from the rest of the part.
I can then move the points with ease without getting confused by other points that are very close to it. I then go into part mode, highlight the part I'm working and the part that it came from originally and join selected and snap to scale and there you have it.
I have snap to scale setting at 0.001 for my work but some people use 0.1 or 0.01. Using 0.001 provides much tighter snap to scale measurement.

I use a basic pilot figure that more or less has been used by MAIW developers for some time.

[sr01]

I've used FSDS for many years now and find it easy and stable to use. I would also like to take a look at the fsx file if that's ok?

Brian Franklin (Simshed)

Brian
Sorry, I don't have an fsx to give you .What I do have is a .fsc file.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark
What I meant by hidden point is that if you select a point and highlight it ,FSDS will highlight the "hidden" point directly underneath it using either a Side ,Top or front view . I was wondering if there was a way of de-selecting that point.

[fishlips]

If you're using your mouse to select a point which has other points underneath it, then I would say that I don't know a way to deselect the ones you don't want. Generally when this occurs I scroll through the points that I wish to select and highlight only those ones required.
In the case where numerous parts start to confuse your work space, you can choose to hide parts and keep only the part that you are working on visible by pressing Control-H on your keyboard to switch it on/off.
A lot of people ask this, how do I get one point to join to another, well its very simple. Highlight the point that you wish to join with another point, move it close to that point and press V. The point will snap to it's nearest point of a separate part. The thing is, it will only snap to a separate part's point so keep that in mind. If you need to fix a wayward part joint, separate the poly's involved as I mention earlier in the thread and then snap the points back together and then snap to scale to smooth the surfaces or align the shadow.
cheer's,

[MIKE JG]

Individual points can be manually selected using the mouse cursor.

In point mode, deselect any of the move, scale or rotate modes so that none of them are active.

With your mouse pointer, simply click on the point you want to move. If there are multiple points occupying the same spot in 3D space, keep clicking the mouse and it will select each point separately. You just have to watch and see until you get the right point that you are trying to edit.

One method I use is to select the point and then select the move mode and actually move the point slightly. If it's not the one I'm trying to edit, I simply hit the undo option and it moves everything back to where it was. You can use this until you get to the correct point that you need.

[MIKE JG]

But Boolean in FSDS is a POS and doesn’t cut it . Has anyone accomplished this ?
It's been a disaster as far as my efforts .I’m looking into porting the project over to Gmax using CVA Converter as Gmax can accomplish what I want to do whist leaving my hair in place.

The boolean cut function is basically useless in FSDS if you ask me. You have to do the cuts manually as I describe here. More work but it's the only way to keep your project from getting messed up.

1- Is a polygon # @ 1764 or 2074 at this stage OK for frame rates?

That's very low and should bode well for the final version.

2- What causes polygram points to wander after saving a model ? For instance the port wingtip became concave instead of convex .

MakeMdl has a tendency to move verticies (points) ever so slightly when compiling your model. It is very frustrating and will cause gaps to show in game. The only thing you can do is to keep editing the points and compiling the model until they end up in game where you want them to. You may also have to rework the part if it comes to that.

3- when copying and pasting ,let's say the wing , from left to right why would the result NOT echo the original?

Could be a couple of things. First is your model centered on the axis? You should be able to copy your left wing part, paste the new version, go to the Transform menu and select "flip" and flip it in the X axis. That should mirror the part in the X axis which is all you should need to do. Then in part mode, hit F2 to bring up the part's properties and change the X location to the opposite of the left wing part, usually a positive value since the left wing is usually on the negative side of the X axis.

4- Would modelling a left side and then copy/pasting the whole model alleviate these problems?

Yes this is a very good technique that Jake Burrus introduced us to. If you only have to model one half of the aircraft, it's a lot less work. Once you are happy with the shape, you simply copy/paste/transform/flip the part to mirror it. One thing to note about doing only one half of a fuse part: Try to leave or move the part's axis to the 0 point of the X axis. That way when you flip it, you don't have to reposition it like you do a wing part. If you have to you can just like you would with the wing but having the fuse part's axis right in the middle will save you a lot of headaches.

7- 3 ,4 and 5 view drawings are often inaccurate and some creators use a lot of artistic licence in making their drawings.In the case of this A/C I have 6 sets and NOT ONE is accurate .Paul Matt is one of a few ,that I could use with confidence ,knowing that the drawings would be extremely accurate .It's too bad he passed away just as modern jets were coming into vogue.

Yes getting accurate 3 views of any model is one of the biggest challenges.

9- Save and occasionally leave the room and say hello to the wife

Or get divorced, problem solved. I'm kidding.

[fishlips]

Looking good, me thinks.

[sr01]

Avro.jpg

Looking good, me thinks.

I do believe so ! Superb job, Mark .It really looks good .Thank's for taking the time .
Here's the pre "Mark has butchered my 101" What I was trying to do was to place points to help later in cutting out flaps and gear. Obviously a seasoned modeller can spot the error of my abinitio method .


and a pic of the wing showing the area around the main gear .

[sr01]

But Boolean in FSDS is a POS and doesn’t cut it . Has anyone accomplished this ?
It's been a disaster as far as my efforts .I’m looking into porting the project over to Gmax using CVA Converter as Gmax can accomplish what I want to do whist leaving my hair in place.

The boolean cut function is basically useless in FSDS if you ask me. You have to do the cuts manually as I describe here. More work but it's the only way to keep your project from getting messed up.

1- Is a polygon # @ 1764 or 2074 at this stage OK for frame rates?

That's very low and should bode well for the final version.

2- What causes polygram points to wander after saving a model ? For instance the port wingtip became concave instead of convex .

MakeMdl has a tendency to move verticies (points) ever so slightly when compiling your model. It is very frustrating and will cause gaps to show in game. The only thing you can do is to keep editing the points and compiling the model until they end up in game where you want them to. You may also have to rework the part if it comes to that.

3- when copying and pasting ,let's say the wing , from left to right why would the result NOT echo the original?

Could be a couple of things. First is your model centered on the axis? You should be able to copy your left wing part, paste the new version, go to the Transform menu and select "flip" and flip it in the X axis. That should mirror the part in the X axis which is all you should need to do. Then in part mode, hit F2 to bring up the part's properties and change the X location to the opposite of the left wing part, usually a positive value since the left wing is usually on the negative side of the X axis.

4- Would modelling a left side and then copy/pasting the whole model alleviate these problems?

Yes this is a very good technique that Jake Burrus introduced us to. If you only have to model one half of the aircraft, it's a lot less work. Once you are happy with the shape, you simply copy/paste/transform/flip the part to mirror it. One thing to note about doing only one half of a fuse part: Try to leave or move the part's axis to the 0 point of the X axis. That way when you flip it, you don't have to reposition it like you do a wing part. If you have to you can just like you would with the wing but having the fuse part's axis right in the middle will save you a lot of headaches.

7- 3 ,4 and 5 view drawings are often inaccurate and some creators use a lot of artistic licence in making their drawings.In the case of this A/C I have 6 sets and NOT ONE is accurate .Paul Matt is one of a few ,that I could use with confidence ,knowing that the drawings would be extremely accurate .It's too bad he passed away just as modern jets were coming into vogue.

Yes getting accurate 3 views of any model is one of the biggest challenges.

9- Save and occasionally leave the room and say hello to the wife

Or get divorced, problem solved. I'm kidding.

Thank's for posting ,Mike . Not only for myself but I'm hoping it will encourage others to jump in . There's some excellent stuff in your 2 posts ! Laughed at your last bit of advise ,only because you felt you had to add "I'm kidding" !

[fishlips]

Brian,
The F-101B is not an easy aircraft to design by any means. It has features that require the modeler to be many steps ahead of ones self in the inital stages of the fuselage, let alone the engine nacelles and wing so in my opinion you have done very well so far and will take a lot of this learning curve onboard when you get around to your second aircraft venture.
I'm happy to help you out further should you require more assistance with cutting out the flaps and gear, etc...
Regards,
Mark

[sr01]

Brian,
The F-101B is not an easy aircraft to design by any means. It has features that require the modeler to be many steps ahead of ones self in the inital satges of the fuselage, let alone the engine nacelles and wing so in my opinion you have done very well so far and will take a lot of this learning curve onboard when you get around to your second aircraft venture.
I'm happy to help you out further should you require more assistance with cutting out the flaps and gear, etc...
Regards,
Mark

Thank's (again!) Mark for taking the time to help .The flaps are going to be very interesting to do
Yeah, I know the 101 is a bitch to model but I needed it for one of it's homes , here


and especially in these ( the MAIW hanger sitting in the snow I've discarded)

[fishlips]

Once you've seen how the flaps are cut out you will be out and about cutting holes everywhere.
On some A/C they can be a chalenge but if you spend a bit of time and set up a templete from the original part and using additional points to help keep the angles correct and positioned all should go fairly well.

[sr01]

Once you've seen how the flaps are cut out you will be out and about cutting holes everywhere.
On some A/C they can be a chalenge but if you spend a bit of time and set up a templete from the original part and using additional points to help keep the angles correct and positioned all should go fairly well.

I figured out doing the template thing and now have a rather neat 101 triplane .
Redone ,completely, the fuselage ,cleaned up the nacelle and did some very minor point movements on your wing .Should be ready to "weld" the nacelle's ,fuselage and wing a la fishlips/Nick Black method.
The welder's torch and epoxy are ready .

[fishlips]

Sometimes its far easier to remake parts again from scratch rather than persist with a part that is not shaped correctly from the onset. You know where you are within the project that way and can proceed with confidence that you now have the shape or the resources to make the shape fit into other surrounding parts smoothly.
There is always trial and error in making aircraft and some of my attempts are real shockers. My first aircraft attempt only seen it used as static scenery such was my poor workmanship. It's also nice to be able to work with other people that can help along the way, it takes some of the stress out of modeling when you come up against a brick wall. Such as Kev lending a hand to make the F-35 nozzle and animation, I probably would never had figured that out and the model would have been abandon eventually.
I get board quickly also, working with other people keeps it interesting but I do have a few AI in the works that are awaiting completion either by my self or somebody here at MAIW.
Glad your on a roll, where here if you need a hand or just a chat about how-too.
One more thing, I do respect Nick Black's modeling and try to follow his method of low-poly models but I was in fact instructed by Andrew Hall who has been a great inspiration, along with other tips and tricks that I've learn't from the MAIW team members along the way.
cheer's,

[sr01]

Fuselage completely redone as are the nacelles .Then this afternoon I gets my grubby little hands on an ACCURATE set of 3 views

[fishlips]

Alway's the way!