A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Discuss anything here...nothing political or controversial please.
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Firebird » 28 Jun 2019, 05:59

Not only have I watched the 90 sec preview but I also watched a breakdown of the preview on youtube which was 65 mins long - no I didn't believe it either.

What did become apparent whilst watching that was that there is some on the fly road traffic AI and some glitching was pointed out, remembering that this is not a finished product yet, of scenery stitching.
What was shown was very impressive, and the breakdown used slow mo and back and forth motion to show off some of the more impressive features which are not apparent at first.

It also seems to hypothesize that the scenery is what is stored in Azure AI. If this is the case then you will have to have to have a fast unlimited broadband connection. What happens if your broadband is down is one of the unknowns at the moment. We shall find out later.
If true it looks like it kinda follows the Google Earth flight sim methodology for scenery, but better.

What has been released by MS is that third-party content development and community-made content will be supported for the title. Again how exactly this will be done has not been released.

One interesting aspect of the breakdown is that it seems that all of the aircraft in the preview appear to be Aerosoft aircraft. Whether they will be part of the game and whether they have been converted for the game are still unknown.

No doubt more info will be released as time goes by.
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by TimC340 » 28 Jun 2019, 11:06

I agree, Sophie, and I'm both fascinated and excited to see what MS brings to the genre after such a long time out of the field. I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that P3D hasn't moved the game on further than it has. 64-bit and dynamic lighting are relatively small improvements to the end user, though I don't doubt the amount of work that was required under the hood to bring FSX through those improvements. DCS shows what can be achieved, and that by a small team of developers. MS should be able to move things on considerably.

Edit: Steve, I came to the same conclusions, though I haven't made time to watch that analysis. My own scrolling through the teaser video convinced me that Aerosoft are deeply involved, and that some of the road traffic algorithms weren't yet up to scratch!

DCS 2.5 Trailer:

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by asdro » 21 Aug 2019, 07:21

Concerning the new MSFS, i wonder that nobody is writing about Dovetail Flightsimulator.

Two years ago i red that Dovetail found an investor that wants to spent up to 3 mio pounds if i am not wrong for the development.

Is it possible that the new MSFS is involved with Dovetail?

Personally i dont think so.

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by TimC340 » 22 Aug 2019, 22:52

As Microsoft have announced they’re taking back ownership of FSX from Steam, and as Dovetail failed to complete Flight Sim World, I’d be very surprised if they have anything to do with FS2020.

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FS2020

Post by VulcanDriver » 02 Oct 2019, 09:43

So far no clue as to the spec of the PC to run this on. But MS have said users won't need a modern high end PC. PC only at the moment, so no game consoles yet. It's being developed by a French company under the MS franchise.


Last edited by Greg on 02 Oct 2019, 17:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Topics merged
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by TimC340 » 03 Oct 2019, 11:15

Interesting snippets from the latest Microsoft statements about MSFS 2020, as reported by FlyAwaySimulation:

https://flyawaysimulation.com/news/4953/#heading3

Freeware And Payware –Yes It’s Still Available! Yes, You Can Still Sell It On Your Site

What’s more, and perhaps one of the most important aspects of flight sim in terms of the end-user is the role of third-parties who may develop addons payware and freeware, and more specifically, whether that will be available to run on the new platform. The developers went out of their way to inform potential users that they are not building a “closed ecosystem” and that such developers will be (and in some cases already have been) given all the tools to continue to develop such content and to sell them on their websites as they have done for some time.

And what’s more, it appears this arrangement is one that all sides are happy with. After all, as the Microsoft developers have stated, as much as these third parties are glad that Microsoft are back in the flight simulation market, Microsoft themselves are more than appreciative of these third parties that enrich the overall experience for the end-user.

There are even plans to introduce an in-game store which, according to the Microsoft developers, is of great appeal to the aforementioned third parties involved.

In short, Microsoft claimed that

“third parties are critically important”

...to the development of Flight Simulator. So much so, that they “want them all” on board. Furthermore, and of importance to the Microsoft development team, is the awareness that virtual pilots – who they described as some of the most dedicated fans in the world – have a great love of freeware, and this is something that the developers will go out of their way to ensure they still have access to.

An interesting review here

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by MIKE JG » 05 Oct 2019, 23:15

I'm certainly impressed by the methods they are employing for flight physics modelling, essentially a 1000% increase in the data
sampling for aerodynamic modelling. Also very impressed with their scenery modelling and rendering, rendering structures in real time based on Bing data streamed real time.

Makes me wonder what sort of internet connection one will need to reliably use the sim??

Their third party developer inclusion is very, very encouraging.
-Mike G.

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by VulcanDriver » 06 Oct 2019, 05:44

I've got 200mbps broadband here in the UK. Not sure what the US has but I assume MS has taken broadband speeds into consideration.
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by TimC340 » 07 Oct 2019, 00:28

Even the free WiFi in my hotel here in Atlanta is 60-80mbps. I have 200+ at home in Suffolk, but I’ve seen over 1Gb/s here. And it’s probably improving faster than MS can use. Bing/Google/Apple maps will stream HD full 3D satellite imagery quite happily at 10-15mbps, so I doubt you’ll need an outrageously fast connection. The data limit may be an issue for some, however.

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Firebird » 07 Oct 2019, 01:24

The key thing here is going to be how much the data is compressed for transfer and how quickly it can be decompressed.

Can it be done on the fly?
If not how much storage space is needed on disk?
Can the data be stored?
is it automatically stored?
Can the downloaded data be used if your internet connection down or unstable?

These are some of the questions I would like to know the answers to.

I know that some people will be optimistic about this area but I think it is very important. I am basing this from my time with BA. We moved all of our documentation to the MS Cloud to replace numerous Linux servers.

It produced a dramatic slowdown in performance for simple things like Word and Excel docs, both to access and to open.
MS said that to improve the speed we needed to dramatically increase the number of access servers from two to a number that made it pointless to have made the transition in the first place.

My point being it maybe very fast for one or two people testing but for 50,000 people playing around the world in different locations is not so easy to manage.

It may well be that MS won't know how it will perform until it is released.
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Greg » 07 Oct 2019, 07:23

The answers to those questions are already (partially) out there if you watch the videos and read the articles.

This article by FSElite explains it well I think.
As for streaming the data from the internet. There are three modes:

Adaptive Streaming
Fully Offline Mode
Pre-Cache Mode

Adaptive Streaming
Adaptive streaming will provide the most detailed experience possible based on your bandwidth. Specifics were not talked about during the presentation, but it was made clear that the simulator will monitor requirements and only use what was available. Based on some of the menu options visible in our hands-on, there were internet options. When speaking to the developers one-on-one, they said that the level of detail will adaptively change depending on the strength of your connection and how much of the data you could download at what speeds.So for those worried that having a slow internet connection will impact your frame rate, that won’t necessarily be the case. However, microdetails such as texturing in cornfields or visible road markings may not render in as much detail if your connection is weak.

Simply put, your level of detail will vary depending on your bandwidth, but the core simulation experience will remain intact. Or as Lioel put it “the better your bandwidth, the better the experience.”

Using adaptive bandwidth will give you the best experience and all those small, but important, details such as tennis course and accurately placed trees.

Fully Offline Mode
Those worried that they wouldn’t have a strong internet connection or simply don’t have one – you’ll be pleased to know that you will still have a complete experience in an offline environment. When installing the simulator, it will also include all of the real-life data such as lakes, oceans, roads, buildings and other landclass areas. Offline mode is described as “reasonably accurate” and users can still fly VFR.

How this works and the storage space required on your hard drive is not known, but I’m pretty sure it won’t require 2PB of storage (despite how quickly prices for storage is coming down).

Pre-Cache Mode
A somewhat halfway point between adaptive streaming and offline mode. The Pre-Cache mode will enable you to download arbitrary regions of the world for offline access. This allows you to experience the same level of detail you would have found in an online world, but just in an offline setting. Again, no mention of data size or retention was mentioned. In our hands-on, the Seattle area was completely offline, but had the staggering details of millions of trees, accurate roads and lakes, along with the city represented in full.

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Firebird » 07 Oct 2019, 09:55

That sounds quite detailed.

The Pre-cache mode will probably be very heavily used as it seems to provide the full experience w/o the internet connection, building upon the offline data. It suggests to me that this mode adds dynamic information to what you have saved.

Once again the size of the downloaded data is a key missing piece of info.

It does sound like a complete network of info that you tailor to your PC situation. I am guessing that there will be a few posts on all forums asking for help to get the best out of their system.
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by TimC340 » 09 Oct 2019, 09:15

I don't doubt for a minute that a new model for providing game content will throw up new technical challenges. As this community's continued engagement with FS9 shows, the advent of new technology does not invalidate existing stuff. We'll start to get an idea of how well this will work within the next few days, as the public Alpha access is about to start.

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by MIKE JG » 19 Oct 2019, 03:15

My hope is that all of the work, all of the modelling, all of the months and months of struggle to get little details correct doesn't go to waste by having to re-model everything all over again.
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Greg » 15 Nov 2019, 14:35

Microsoft released a new video yesterday. Still nothing about AI, but if this sim turns out to be only half as good as they make it seem, I'm dusting off my good old X52 Pro and won't have time for virtual spotting anyway. :shock:

(turn your speakers on)


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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Reggie » 15 Nov 2019, 17:57

I'm just prayin' that my computer will run it.

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by TimC340 » 24 Nov 2019, 05:34

A new announcement by Microsoft (according to Fly Away Simulation): now they've taken back responsibility for FSX, they're issuing an FSX Beta test to data-gather for elements of the new sim. The relevant info is here: https://flyawaysimulation.com/news/4953/#fsxbeta

This paragraph is interesting....:

"Some chatter suggests they are gathering data to make the new simulator more backward compatible with FSX so users are able to use (most) of their FSX add-on with the 2020 release... wouldn't that be great!

We're unsure as to what "data" will be gathered but if you want to show your support, help the development team out!"

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Firebird » 25 Nov 2019, 09:03

I am not sure whether this is a good thing or not.

Obviously great for users with FSX, but if the two products compete against themselves you do run the risk of both failing to make it worth while for MS to continue them.

Mostly I feel sorry for people that upgrade to the latest sim that comes out. Those that have made the move to P3D. Do they stick go back to FSX or go for the new one.

Very confusing at the moment.
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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by TimC340 » 25 Nov 2019, 13:07

I understand the purpose of this beta isn’t to rejuvenate that old program, but to exploit that large remaining user base to test a few things that may make it into FS20. This reinforces the suggestion that some parts of the code may allow a (small?) degree of backwards compatibility in the new sim.

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Re: A brand new MS Flight Simulator is coming...

Post by Firebird » 26 Nov 2019, 22:54

That is what I thought. I am just concerned that it might split their audience, thereby doing themselves harm and ultimately we lose them from the business of providing sims - again.
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