Victors and Canberra (Marham)

[Firebird]

John, you can still model it and then override the mdl size with either afcad or Martin's ai-aircraft-editor.

Nick used to do this all the time for anything that had bits dangling and dragging, i.e. chutes. So once the model is finished set it to 10m, which is what all the others should be.
It's easy enough to use but I can do that for you if need it.

[John Young]

That's useful to know Steve, thank you. I'll need to do some tests to see how easy it is to locate the banner from an intercepting user aircraft, when it's towed 900ft behind the tug. I wish I had a coloured picture of the banner though. I have a black and white one of it laid out on the ground - it looks like it's about 25ft long and made of fine mesh with a large rectangular white inner banner and a dark spot about a third of the way down from the cable attachment point. I can't tell what colour the mesh or the spot is of course. I would think trying to locate the small missile-like Rushton target 20,000ft behind the tug would be near on impossible in the sim.

John

[Firebird]

I am trying to remember the fine mesh but the spot was red. I have a feeling that the mesh was plain metal thread, but I can't remember for sure. What we need is somebody that used to work on either 100 or 7 sqns, or FRADU, for the definitive answer.

[Christopher Low]

I am gagging for that Victor

[Chrisb]

John

I have a book Fast Jets 2 by Chris Allan (1990 era) and in it is a colour photo of a banner being towed. The 100 Sqn Canberra is on a seperate page and is not actually towing it. Lightnings are in attendance. Do you want a scan? If you do drop me a pm with your mail as I am bound to make it too big for anything else.

Chris

[f4nutter]

i got the same book Chris i was just looking for it lol.

[Chrisb]

Ray

It was one of those 'I know I have a picture somewhere' moments and luckily I found it on the third book.

Chris

[John Young]

Thanks for the pictures Chris. Just what I was looking for and with the dimensions of the banner too that was a real bonus.

John

[Chrisb]

John

It really is a pleasure. I didn't realise that the dimensions were in the text until the last moment but had 'read' the book many times.

Chris

[John Young]

The difficult bit wasn't the banner set-up but the mapping for the yellow and black stripes.

I tried the banner at different distances. Much further back than in the screen shots, then it tends to get a bit lost. In reality, the Rushton Winch had a 50,000ft cable, according to my Warpaint book, which is enough to extend the target over 9 miles behind the aircraft, but I don't know what the safe minimum distance was, though a psot on PPrune has a reference to operation at 800ft. This is one is set to deploy 500ft behind the Canberra:









Should provide a bit of fun.

John

[f4nutter]

that look's awsome John.

[Stewart Pearson]

Just makes me want to use that great line from the 1960's film The Battle of Britain


Chicken to Shitehawk in one easy lesson......................Tak-a-Tak-Tak-a-Tak-Tak-a-Tak-Tak-a-Tak.

Looks brilliant John.

[gsnde]

I am dying to add this one to the Other AI page...
Gorgeous, Jon!!!!!

[Firebird]

Phenomenal. Can't wait to add those to Akrotiri, used to have fun shooting at those blighters every year out there.

[Dinga69]

I have been working on 100 Squadron for the last 17 years, and in this time, done a fair bit of 'bannering' with the Hawk in the UK and Akrotiri. Just a couple of points, The target itself is made of a thick mesh material and can confirm it is an offwhite colour with black painted markings. Now, having never having worked on the Canberra's but judging by the archaic kit we used to launch these with, I would say that the air to air gunnery banners were launched in the same way - ie, from the ground with a snatched take-off, and not launched from a winch system. The banner is attached to the aircraft onto a small latched release mechanism and dropped onto the 'bondu' on recovery by means of a switch in the cockpit which releases the latch. We haven't done any target towing for a few years now, but I'm sure the 'defunct' Air Publication is still hidden somewhere. This has all cable, rope and strop dimensions for all target launch systems since the 60's or 70's. I'll try to find it if you want some extra realism, but can't promise anything!!

[Firebird]

From my APC experience, I can confirm that with the Canberra the banner was laid out nicely on the ground for take off and then dragged for take off and dropped from a low fly past before recovery. To be honest I can't ever recall 100 sqn ever carrying the pods on the wings, fuel tanks yes, but that might purely have been an Akrotiri thing.

Of course it could be a crap memory thing, as well. I wish I had taken more notice at the time but I never thought that I would need the info 40 years later.

[Chrisb]

I hope I am helping!. Surely the Rushton target drone pod is the top piece bolted to the wing and the lower tube thing at an angle is the target. We are seeing the target reeled in, as John has modelled it. I do not think the banner had anything to do with the Rushton pod which is why we are reading/remembering that it was snatched take off and dropped afterwards. It wouldn't have been reeled out and released (was that even possible except perhaps in emergencies) I will see what else I have.

I have found that a photo of 7Sqn B.2 (later to TT.18) in 1974 that has a target reeled in to the pod that is without the small tubes stuck to it. I'm sorry but I don't know what to call the pieces.
'Modern Royal Air Force by Terry Gander' says "100 Sqn uses a variety of Canberra marks ranging from an elderly B.2 which now has only a banner towing function to perform for air to air cannon firing practise". "Another target aircraft aircraft is the TT.18 which is used to pull Rushton type targets behind the aircraft from winches under each wing"
Modellers Data File on the EE Lightning. After giving details of the Canberras role at the Lightnings APC in Malta and how they used the banner in relation to angles etc it says "....the target tug approached the runway very low to disengage the target (Canberras had no facility to winch in the banner).

Chris

[John Young]

This photo tends to confirm that 100Sqn Canberra's did indeed have the Rushton winches fitted:

http://www.canberracrazy.co.uk/Canberra%20records.htm

I also found another photo of a 100 Sqn aircraft, that was an ex-FRADU Canberra, also with the pods. My Warpaint book also has a 7 Sqn Canberra with the pods and I believe these aircraft were swept up later by 100 Sqn. Unfortunately, I just can't find the shot again that I discovered on my trawl of the net that showed how the Rushton was modified to carry the banners. Instead of the rocket - like target, it had two tubes attached to the underside of the pods that housed the banners. I've taken the liberty of putting the "rocket" pod on the left wing and the one with banner tubes on the right. I'll gladly change that though if we can confirm a different arrangement.

Building historic AI aircraft is like building retro scenery - I love the detective work and the interaction with people who have memories is great. Thanks for the input everyone.

John

[Chrisb]

John,

The Last of the Lightnings by Ian Black gives the whole banner procedure in detail and confirms the banner was laid alongside the runway and the Canberra dragged it into the air.
I'll get back to painting, this research is too taxing.

Chris

[John Young]

It's certainly confusing Chris. I've just found the reference and photograph again to the banner pods attached to the Rushtons:

7th post down:

http://www.airfieldinformationexchange. ... ed-Targets

John