V-22 Osprey

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John Young
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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by John Young » 03 Jul 2017, 06:36

Kevin, the 4 material settings in Gmax that might have a relevance, are Specular level, Glossiness, Opacity level and reflection. FSX is much more complex. I'm intrigued - what were you thinking of using "Brightness" for?

John

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by Weescotty » 04 Jul 2017, 02:48

Oh, for the lights on the end of the rotor tips.
BRIGHT is an option in FSDS for a material.

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by John Young » 04 Jul 2017, 07:01

No I don't have a BRIGHT option in Gmax, but I could probably do the same thing with a light map around the circumference of the rotor disk.

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by Woogey » 30 Aug 2017, 17:57

This Maybe user error on this one, but I am pretty sure I have double checked all the boxes. Unlike most of John's releases, the Osprey does not have an FSX specific model, is this correct? I see that you guys have thoughtfully included FSX Flightplan .bgl's, but I can not seem to locate any FSX native models. The reason I ask goes back to the "next big thing" P3d4. I have recompiled the Miramar scenery and it looks great. I also recompile the Flight plans to P3d4, and convert all the Osprey Textures to .dds. Alas, no Osprey's are showing in the Sim.

Sad Woogey here.

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by hermit » 30 Aug 2017, 18:38

Bottom of Page 4 in the manual:

A NOTE ABOUT FSX
While it is possible to convert the Osprey to FSX native code, the parked animation choices have not worked. As a result of that, only one model is possible – engines up when parked. However, the FS9 model works well in FSX with all 4 parked states intact. For that reason, I have decided not to make the FSX models at this time.

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by Firebird » 30 Aug 2017, 19:58

Yes, as stated it is one of John's big bug bears about sims later than FS9. For all its faults FS9 was very flexible in the use of xml. John couldn't get it to work due to the limitation of the sim and so he was not able to produce FSX models.
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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by John Young » 30 Aug 2017, 20:48

Yes that's right. Just a tiny change in the operation of the Nav lights in FSX and P3D prevents so many useful xml triggers that work brilliantly in FS9 - the Nav lights come on at engine start, not 15 minutes prior as they do in FS9.

So, for example, you can only have canopies open (triggered by the Nav lights coming on) the whole time when parked, unless you have two separate models - open and closed. You can't have a timer trigger to close doors, fold things, or disappear things at any time up to 15 minutes prior to departure. Doors in FSX/P3D AI aircraft only close after the aircraft is on the move. The lack of the -15 minute trigger affects the complex animation linkages in a potential FSX/P3D Osprey - the wing fold in particular, which would only occur with the aircraft moving.

I thought it better to use the FS9 Osprey models in FSX and retain the full functionality and accept a slightly lower frame rate performance and lower definition textures. I haven't tested it, because P3Dv4 wasn't out at the time, but unfortunately, I would think the FS9 models will not work in that sim version - the gear and the props probably won't appear, just like other FS9 models.

It's a bugbear when trying to design across all 3 sim versions unfortunately. FS9 is brilliant for AI functionality. FSX and particularly P3Dv4 are far superior for graphics. Now if Lockheed Martin would just revert the Nav lights to -15 minutes in the next P3D release, I'd be a very happy bunny. Kevin, our xml guru has suggested all sorts of alternative triggers for use in FSX/P3D, but with extensive testing, we have found nothing that can replace the -15 minute Nav lights.

Sometimes, you just can't have everything.

John

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by Joseph29 » 31 Aug 2017, 03:35

John Young wrote:
30 Aug 2017, 20:48
Yes that's right. Just a tiny change in the operation of the Nav lights in FSX and P3D prevents so many useful xml triggers that work brilliantly in FS9 - the Nav lights come on at engine start, not 15 minutes prior as they do in FS9.

So, for example, you can only have canopies open (triggered by the Nav lights coming on) the whole time when parked, unless you have two separate models - open and closed. You can't have a timer trigger to close doors, fold things, or disappear things at any time up to 15 minutes prior to departure. Doors in FSX/P3D AI aircraft only close after the aircraft is on the move. The lack of the -15 minute trigger affects the complex animation linkages in a potential FSX/P3D Osprey - the wing fold in particular, which would only occur with the aircraft moving.

I thought it better to use the FS9 Osprey models in FSX and retain the full functionality and accept a slightly lower frame rate performance and lower definition textures. I haven't tested it, because P3Dv4 wasn't out at the time, but unfortunately, I would think the FS9 models will not work in that sim version - the gear and the props probably won't appear, just like other FS9 models.

It's a bugbear when trying to design across all 3 sim versions unfortunately. FS9 is brilliant for AI functionality. FSX and particularly P3Dv4 are far superior for graphics. Now if Lockheed Martin would just revert the Nav lights to -15 minutes in the next P3D release, I'd be a very happy bunny. Kevin, our xml guru has suggested all sorts of alternative triggers for use in FSX/P3D, but with extensive testing, we have found nothing that can replace the -15 minute Nav lights.

Sometimes, you just can't have everything.

John
This is why I am thinking of having both FS9 and P3D v4 on my new computer. I will have P3D for all the new stuff coming out, and I hopefully could still use FS9 for my AI, military AI, flyable planes and scenery that will not work in P3D.

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by gavinc » 31 Aug 2017, 08:26

John, since P3D-v4 breaks your lovely Ospreys would you consider releasing the FSX model (assuming you still have it) and the folks that want to use it will have to live with the fact that there is only one parked state?

Thanks
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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by John Young » 31 Aug 2017, 14:39

I thought the last sentence of this paragraph in the Osprey manual, already quoted in this topic , was pretty clear Gavin:

A NOTE ABOUT FSX
While it is possible to convert the Osprey to FSX native code, the parked animation choices have not worked. As a result of that, only one model is possible – engines up when parked. However, the FS9 model works well in FSX with all 4 parked states intact. For that reason, I have decided not to make the FSX models at this time.

However, just to make it clearer, I haven't made any FSX models, in any parked state. That's not likely to change any time soon I'm afraid.

John

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by gavinc » 31 Aug 2017, 15:07

Hi John,
My mistake - sorry

Gavin

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by Woogey » 18 Sep 2017, 05:29

See, typical American Male here, not reading the manual haha! That is ok, the fact that I can't have Osprey's just made up my mind for me. See I was always torn between NAS Miramar and MCAS Miramar. Which one do I use in the sim, Retro or Current. I will go with NAS Miramar for my P3d4 installation. Now about those old Tomcat models............ :wink: :lol:

-Woog

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by FlyTweety » 03 Oct 2017, 10:35

I think the final words from me:

Too sad that John weights the 3 additional parking animations higher than the general appearance of the V-22 in P3D v4.
I have to accept it, but i cannot understand.

Rather i see the lovely bird taxiing, departing and landing than parking in 3 different states.
For those states, rather create static models if animation is not possible...

Bye bye V-22, hello v4 :cry:

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by MIKE JG » 03 Oct 2017, 13:45

Ahhh..... complaining about stuff that is FREE..... :roll:
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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by clickclickdoh » 03 Oct 2017, 15:21

I mean, you know... you could try to make your own FSX/P3Dv4 V-22 model..

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by John Young » 03 Oct 2017, 21:23

Really sorry FlyTweety, but the only person who has the final say on what I want to build and what I don't, is me.

Indeed you won't understand why I don't want to make an FSX/P3Dv4 V-22, because you won't have a clue about the complexities and tedium of coding the animation through all the LODs for an AI aircraft of that type in those sim versions. It's not just the aircraft that will need converting for FSX/P3Dv4, but the AFCADs, including anti-pushback nodes and new excludes and flattens in all the associated sceneries that accommodate the V-22's.

I will be driven by what will sustain me and not what could risk driving me away by being criticised and pressurised into spending a couple of hundred hours on something I have no interest in doing. It's a hobby and I'm not duty bound to deliver anything, just because a new sim version has recently arrived. I don't think that's sad, just more sustainable.

John

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by drpilotw99 » 03 Oct 2017, 22:49

John Young wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 21:23
Really sorry FlyTweety, but the only person who has the final say on what I want to build and what I don't, is me.

Indeed you won't understand why I don't want to make an FSX/P3Dv4 V-22, because you won't have a clue about the complexities and tedium of coding the animation through all the LODs for an AI aircraft of that type in those sim versions. It's not just the aircraft that will need converting for FSX/P3Dv4, but the AFCADs, including anti-pushback nodes and new excludes and flattens in all the associated sceneries that accommodate the V-22's.

I will be driven by what will sustain me and not what could risk driving me away by being criticised and pressurised into spending a couple of hundred hours on something I have no interest in doing. It's a hobby and I'm not duty bound to deliver anything, just because a new sim version has recently arrived. I don't think that's sad, just more sustainable.

John
Very well said John, and an extreme courtesy of you to even write it as you or any other developer doesn't owe anybody an explanation for anything.

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by John Young » 04 Oct 2017, 05:48

Thanks Doug. A quick count this morning tells me that I have produce 65 military AI aircraft types, across a broad spectrum, in FSX native code that should all work in P3Dv4. That ought to be enough to get P3Dv4 users started with AI aircraft without having to ask for more at this early stage of the new sim's introduction.

If it's not, I have some good tutorials on getting started with Gmax.

John

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by John Young » 15 Jul 2018, 10:21

I decided to bite the bullet and see what could be done by converting my FS9 Ospreys to FSX native code. This would enable more efficient use in FSX and use for the first time in P3Dv4. It was really the recent release of MCAS Camp Pendleton for FSX with so much AI in it, including V-22 Ospreys, that caused me to reconsider. Like all FS9 AI aircraft, they generally work in FSX, but at the expense of the frame rate. I worked out later that they were costing 9 fps at Pendleton.

The doubtful part of any V-22 conversion has always been the complexity of the parked-state animation. The problem is that the engines must rotate upwards before they start, or the props would rotate into the ground. The props also need to stop in the same place each time so that one blade is pointing straight up. The wing rotation option before that just adds to the complexity. I tried various xml blocks, but none worked in FSX/P3Dv4, apart from one - the “engines up” option. That’s obviously because no upward rotation is required from the parked state. The rotation of the engines during flight also worked very well. These tests confirmed my previous assumptions of what’s possible and what’s not in FSX native code.

I’m pleased to say that after this work, we now have an FSX/P3Dv4 Osprey package using the “engines up when parked” model as the base. Variations for the USMC, including presidential and the USAF SOW at Mildenhall are included as are 96 paints. This is a small sample of the different users:

Image

Image

Additionally, unlike FS9, FSX and P3Dv4 allow effect files to be attached to parts that move, in this case to enable the navigation and landing lights. I also took the opportunity to add rotor tip lights. These are used for safety when on the ground and for formation keeping when in the air at night:

Image

The time consuming part was to try and enable all the scenery that was used with the FS9 models in P3Dv4. My thanks to Brent for helping me do that and to Tony Dalton for allowing me to include 7 of his library files that I needed to convert with MCX in order to make his objects visible.

The result is that Miramar, Yuma, Camp Pendleton, Quantico, Futenma (Japan) and Mildenhall (UK) can all be used in FSX and P3Dv4 with the FSX native Ospreys.

The finished zip has been sent for inclusion in the Download Hangar. Just give Greg a chance to make it available please.

Image

John

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Re: V-22 Osprey

Post by Joseph29 » 15 Jul 2018, 10:38

WOW! I didn't think I ever see this plane in P3D. After reading the description you wrote it sounds like on the P3D models the wings and rotor blades do not fold when parked right? If true that is a super small price to pay to have these planes in P3D.

I am off to download flightplans so I can install these when they are released!

Edit: I just wanted to add that the night shot with the lighted blade tips is cool!

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