Anyone ever tried to do this?

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 18 Dec 2008, 21:04

While I'm laid up and away from my gaming/Flight Sim pc, my mind has been wandering and considering "What ifs" I haven't tried.

I remember talking with a Dutch WWII survivor who was a boy in 1944/45. He said that he remembered looking up on some days and watching the bombing raids launched against Germany. Sometimes, he said, it seemed like the aerial corridor overhead was simply filled with bombers enroute to or from their targets and their bases in England. He said that it seemed to go on for hours and he specifically remembered the line of aircraft stretching from one horizon to another. Considering that some of the bombing raids involved hundreds of aircraft (a few 1000 or more?), this is consisitent with what I have read but I have trouble actually imagining such a view.

So, I was wondering if anyone had tried doing anything like that - making a relatively long/nearly continuous flyover of a single point?

ronniegj · Post by **ronniegj** » 18 Dec 2008, 21:36

A couple of years back I saw a video that had been created using IL2. It was a tribute to a WWII bomb wing that departed England with 100+ a/c and only one was able to survive the raid and return. This was very impressive, and had visible a good many a/c at one time (maybe not 100, but many), and is worth a google search to locate. It was in WMV so does not require IL2 to view.

Ron

Firebird · Post by **Firebird** » 18 Dec 2008, 22:35

I think, Ford, that this is another case that fits the Eddie Izzard line "We could count to a billion. We would not, but we could!"

Jumpshot724 · Post by **Jumpshot724** » 18 Dec 2008, 22:38

I would love to do something like that. Maybe not 100 a/c, but definetly maybe an airshow with a whole squadron, or something like that. I've always wanted to practice in-flight refueling in MSFS lol....

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 18 Dec 2008, 23:19

I'm thinking it might not be "that hard" if the idea is just to "watch the stream pass by overhead" - which is what the Dutch guy did. I mean, he never saw them take off or land - just pass by and pass by and pass by...

So, let me trot this idea out for discussion.

***0***. Assume that the user is going to watch the "bomber stream" from the ground at a position directly under the stream's flight route..

1. What about a simple flight plan between a set of 10 invisible waypoints 100 feet apart on a line perpendicular to the flight route to some "arbitrary" destination airfield --- if the planes land, disappear, whatever at the desination, who cares?

2. At a given time, to the second, some AI aircraft will spawn at the edge of the visual/ATC control area closest to or rlevant to the user's aircraft as a result of moving along that flight route from those 10 waypoints - way back out of visual range.
Edited to amplify/explain: The use of "10 waypoints 100 feet apart" is to prevent a single line of aircraft/to try to simulate aircraft groupings rather than just pop-pop-pop-pop...

3. 10-30 seconds separate the next "spawning" of aircraft in the same flight route - due to adjustment of their flightplans to the second. Consider we're not going for "perfect formation flying" here, just a "stream".
Edited to explain/amplify - The idea here is to simulate different aircraft groupings/boxes of aircraft flying "together". Granted, flying "line abreast" is totally unrealistic. Heck, the points don't HAVE to be line abreast, just "grouped" somehow. Hey, if "we're" going to play with this idea, let's really play with it.

4. Repeat #3 for 10-20 times - that should produce a "bomber stream".

5. Sit "back" on the ground and watch.

Does this sound like what you guys would try if you were tring to accomplish this?

Edited to add/amplify: While talking with my WW2-era Dad, we came up with the following "real world considerations". The visual ground distance from horizon to horizon is theoretically as far as 52 miles. Add the elevation/altitude of aircraft and we're actually talking of a visual "horizon to horizon distance" of at least 65 miles (assuming 20-30,000 foot flight levels and a ground elevation of sea level. However, I'm not sure that FSn actually displays any aircraft at a distance of more than 10 miles from the user's aircraft - calculates such positions, maybe, but display/draw them, no. So, the max straight line distance visually observalbe would be 20 miles. Assume 5 aircraft groupings spaced .5 miles apart and the total aircraft displayed would be, what? 40 aircraft? (5 (aircraft) x 2(groups per mile) x 20 )visual miles)) That should be calculatable and displayable on even a medium spec machine. Increase the number of aircraft per group and or decrease the aircraft group spacings and then FPS might begin to become an issue.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 19 Dec 2008, 01:18

That sounds like what I would do

It reminds me of a scenery that I had a few years back before I had to reinstall FS9. It is called Battle of Midway. It comes in four download files.
It come with the Yorktown, New Orleans, Pensacola and their battle group and a slew of US Navy WWII aircraft. The Imperial Japanese Navy battle group and a slew of Japanese WWII aircraft. I posted some screen shots of it earlier. There are a whole lot aircraft than I showed

http://militaryaiworks.com/forum/viewto ... highlight=

They're found at flightsim.com go to search menu. In the Search only file section box select 2004 Scenery and in the Search for text box type in Midway

Paul

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 19 Dec 2008, 05:38

I couldn't find anything like that searching avsim this evening (on a slow dial-up connection as opposed to my normal connection).

OTOH, I did "re-find" the stuff on Yanco's ToyBox - both for Midway and Coral Sea. I had loaded both of those "back in the day" when I ran FS9. If I remember correctly, they are quite an impressive package. The limitations of "Yanco's" fp's in comparison to the "bomber stream over The Netherlands" idea include 1 by 1 takeoffs from 3 or 4 carriers and thus 3 or 4 in-line streams of aircraft - if you follow them from their launch points - 3 from the US carriers, 4 from the Japanese.

I hadn't ever gone "midway" between the two fleet positions to check out what the groups looked like when I had it installed in FS9 as I just flew along with either the US or the Japanese - or watched the attacks from a "slew point" overhead the fleet.

That said, we're still not quite talking the same thing/implementation with respect to my original post here. The Battle of Midway/Coral Sea had a fairly limited number of aircraft - <300 aircraft even including both sides, I think. The groups flew en masse as relatively cohesive groups - approached a point, then passed it and disappeared "from view".

The bomber stream over The Netherlands idea is a (nearly-)continuous stream of aircraft/aircraft groups passing a point/large rectangle on the ground for an extended period of time - my Dutch friend said "hours" though I still have some difficulty believing that. (Intellectually knowing and believing are different.) Then again, how long DOES it take for a stream of 500, 800, 1100 aircraft cruising at 180-210 mph to pass over a single point? I don't know which is another reason I'm curious about this.

I just wish I would be at/near my gaming pc sometime within the next 5 days to try this out. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen.

VulcanDriver · Post by **VulcanDriver** » 19 Dec 2008, 06:32

I think that the max distance to horizon in the UK (and possibly other north European countries ) is about 14 nautical miles due to the curvature of the earth. So the stream would need to be shorter in these areas.

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 19 Dec 2008, 08:57

VulcanDriver wrote:I think that the max distance to horizon in the UK (and possibly other north European countries ) is about 14 nautical miles due to the curvature of the earth. So the stream would need to be shorter in these areas.

Actually, Earth curvature in FS is a minor issue. Much more important is the size and boundaries of the ATC control area. The smallest I know of is 40 miles across, but I think the norm is 120 - tho I could be wrong on both (head injuries do that to you, as does age).

Then again, both 14nm and a 40 mile minimum ATC boundary range within FSn are further minimized by the 10 mile FSn visual draw distance limit - unless ATC actually calculates AI aircraft positions outside that limit despite not needing to draw them (and I think that might actually be the case).

Edit: Sleepless in "Seattle" here tonight. Just found the files on flightsim.. duh. Need to learn to "type straight". Also found the FSX correction for the flattens. That will be nice to try when I get back to my own pc. The more realistic water in FSX should really make the Battle of Midway package stand out.

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 22 Dec 2008, 16:18

Well, made it home this morning and decided to try out my idea.

The attachment is a preliminary set of fp's trying out the idea.

Originally, the plan was to do this in/over The Netherlands, but for proof of concept, I decided to try it out over a less congested aerial corridor - between Baton Rouge-north of Lake Ponchatrain-and Biloxi, Mississippi. Easy to orient oneself due to geography and the Lakefront Airport is just south of the intended fligh route - take off/slew, go up to 18,000' and look west.

If someone else wants to play with this, have fun. I've basically already answered my "original question" with this little experimentation.

Note: You'll probably have to make a modification to the Aircraft.txt file to choose a good plane for your own test. I decided to use a Spitfire as I couldn't find a decent AI WW2 bomber.

bismarck · Post by **bismarck** » 22 Dec 2008, 17:46

I've tried something like this some times ago. Never finished due to lack of time....Too many MAIW packages to test...

I've searched for multi LOD Fortress but didn't found.
The only one I think you could use, is the B24 Liberator from CFS2.
It needs some FDE correction if you want to follow it during take-off or landing, but if you only want to watch it in fly, it flies....and it has at least 8 LOD.

Giorgio

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 22 Dec 2008, 18:05

bismarck wrote:I've searched for multi LOD Fortress but didn't found.
The only one I think you could use, is the B24 Liberator from CFS2.

I don't have a clue how to convert CFS aircraft to FSX-usability. But thanks for the idea.

bismarck · Post by **bismarck** » 22 Dec 2008, 20:00

Oh yes, I don't have FSX...

BTW, in FS9 you just have to put it in the aircraft dir, and flies

Ciao

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 23 Dec 2008, 00:10

I may try that. I thought there was a difference in the mdl files - don't know where I got that idea. I can live with the bad glass texture issues if I have to - though mess up prop textures are VERY aggravating.

bismarck · Post by **bismarck** » 26 Mar 2009, 21:36

I've found a couple of multi LOD Fortress, so i give it a try...

Just first attempt, still working on it.

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 26 Mar 2009, 23:10

Interesting that this got resurrected. Glad my question peeked your interest.

Yep. Your picture shows pretty much the effect I was looking for and finally came up with from the air. REmember, though, that I was initially curious about what it would look like from the ground --- but I admit the in-air pictures are more interesting to most people.

I managed to get something like 400 on screen at once in a fairly continuous stream about 1/2 a mile wide extending 20 miles long - 2 times the FS-restricted visual draw distance for ai aircraft. To do so meant that I needed to get rid of all other ai, turn off animated jetways, and a few other tweaks so that the visual display wasn't a "stuttering freeze-frame movie". but the FPS WAS definitely onthe really low-end.

Once you get the general flightplan for the stream working, adding additional squadrons which fly at slightly different levels and together AS squadrons is pretty easy to figure out. Trying to get them to fly in actual "box formations" is much more difficult(read that as "tedious") and I decided not quite worth the effort.

When I finally got it working, I sat on the ground, watched it for about 15 real time minutes and then deleted it. It was really just a "Wild hair" project that I never really intended to be releasable to the public as a finalized/quality set of flightplans. Now that I've done it once, replicating it would be fairly simple as I know the "process".

The other thing I played with a bit before deleting was adding some fighter (P-38 ) squadrons as escorts ---- I'd used the Spitfires from a UKMIL package as "bomber substitutes" because I never did quite get the CFS-converted aircraft to fly or display properly in FSX. When I did this, I changed from continuous stream to intermittent groupings with larger spacings to minimize the visual stuttering - just think of it. The fire-bombing of Dresden occured over 3 days, involved an unGodly number of bombers and they were escorted, left alone, escorted again - and the streams changed directions over those 3 days. But it was a ***t-load of aircraft - more than any pc I have heard of can handle (- and you still run up against that 10-mile from the user aircraft maximum ai draw distance.)

In hind sight, doing this over Europe (or any other major landmass) is tougher than doing it in the Pacific due to the amount of autogen and ground textures. Simulating a raid on Japan and looking at the stream halfway between Okinawa and Hokkaido would probably hae the best "smoothness" visually.

It was a lot of fun to experiment with. If there were good multi-lod WW2 aircraft, I might have kept the project. But it's not really something likely to be seen ever again - in the real world at least.

bismarck · Post by **bismarck** » 27 Mar 2009, 13:29

I had a look from ground (tower view) but it is not so good in my opinion.
I'll give it another try when I'll adjust the timing of the raid.In the picture you see 18 B-17 G, but the raid

with B-17 F has 27 of them.
Not yet tested the raid with the Lancaster.

I would like to add some fighters as escort or fly in formation with a couple of Me-262 or FW-190, both are available as multi LOD model.

If results will be good, I''l post some shot.

Ciao

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 27 Mar 2009, 14:20

bismarck wrote:I had a look from ground (tower view) but it is not so good in my opinion.
I'll give it another try when I'll adjust the timing of the raid.In the picture you see 18 B-17 G, but the raid

with B-17 F has 27 of them.
Not yet tested the raid with the Lancaster.

I would like to add some fighters as escort or fly in formation with a couple of Me-262 or FW-190, both are available as multi LOD model.

If results will be good, I''l post some shot.

Ciao

Actually, your picture is quite good and most people would agree it's more visually intersting than a view from the ground.

When I said I was looking at it from ground view, I was referring to something I said concerning the Dutch fellow I spoke with - that was his point of view and I was wondering what such a "real life story" would look like in FSn. Essentially, all he saw was contrails, none of the aircraft because they were normally above 25,000 feet. So that was what I tried to replicate.

As far as flying "in formation" in a German aircraft, that would be kinda cool.. TI'd try it using something like this method - set up the bomber stream, then flightplan an "intercept squadron" that actually intercepts the flightpath of the bomber stream. Adding escorting fighters to the bomber stream is easy - just offset the altitude by 500 feet and the lat/lon of the associated waypoints by an arbitrary figure - maybe .5 mile. Spawn your aircraft at the departure point for the intercept fighters and follow along/fly wingman! Closing in on the bomber/fighter groups should be quite a sight if you don't "cheat" (turn off the ai information displayed above the aircraft - then you'd see how easy or hard it is to spot the approaching groups of planes).

I'm looking forward to your pics.

bismarck · Post by **bismarck** » 05 Apr 2009, 17:06

Another couple of shots, but it is not what I'd like to see...

Project abandoned

Ford Friendly · Post by **Ford Friendly** » 10 Apr 2009, 22:56

Just in case anyone running FSX is interested, I kinda resurrected this question for myself today and found that the FS9 Wings of Power B-17 works pretty darned well as an ai aircraft for me. It's probably not a multi-lod model "to MAIW" standards; I really don't know. I do know that I had 8 different squadrons of a dozen or so aircraft in the air within 1 mile of me flying over an inhabited urban area and still got over 12 FPS - VERY flyable and stutter-free.

It's probably worth the time to check some of the other WoP aircraft just for comparison/information/curiosity's sake if you can't get CFS2/3 aircraft to work in FSX - like I couldn't for some reason. They'd show in the ai traffic list, but I couldn't see them and if I switched to them, the fde didn't seem to be working very well ---- think aircraft bouncing along and diving into the ground when it should be midway between departure and destination.